Horsepower wars: Lamborghini to raise Gallardo output to 600 horsepower!

The core problem with Lambo is they haven't clearly articulated their new brand. What is their promise of value to the consumer, and how does that differ from their competitors, including Ferrari and Porsche? Lambo used to be the most outrageous car that money could buy. Crazy over-the-top looks, too much power for the chassis, insanely impractical, yet every schoolboy's wet dream of day-glo green look-at-me-and-screw-your-rules outrageousness. No longer is that true. The G is an accountant's supercar, with a lot of horsepower and everyday safety features like AWD, ABS, and VSC. AFAIK, the G can't even do tire-smoking burnouts! The $80k Dodge Viper is more outrageous than the Lambo G, both in looks, in concept (a truck engine in a sports car???), and in execution. England is full of niche manufacturers that make more outrageous cars, including the Noble M400 (power and handling), the Ariel Atom (power to weight and driver sacrifice), and the Morgan Aero 8 (looks and sport) to name a few. So what is Lambo now? Is it the sexiest car that money can buy? No, that's the Ferrari or possibly Aston-Martin. Is it the best combination of sport, comfort, safety, and reliability? No, that's the Porsche. Is it the best driver's car that money can buy? No, that's the Ferrari or the Lotus. Is it the most race-car like car? No, that's the Ferrari or the Porsche. (When's the last time you saw a Lambo on Speed?) So why would anyone buy a Lambo anymore?

It's hard to see how Audi ownership of Lambo makes any business sense. Lambo's history is look-at-me outrageousness. Audi's history is conservative don't-notice-my-expensive-car styling. A casual observer would be hard-pressed to distinguish between a high-end Audi (A8L), a high-performance Audi (RS6), or a low-end Audi (A4). If you mix those two brands, you end up with confusion. If Audi wants to sell a supercar, they should convert their R8 into street spec. That car would sell like hotcakes because the R8 brand is about total race domination. And unless they want to bankrupt Lambo, Audi should cut Lambo loose to make the most outrageous car that money can buy in the 21st century. Not sure what that would be, but I'll bet that some clever Italians can figure that out for us all!

Long live Lambo!

 

While it is true that the Gallardo is faster, both in a straight line race and around a track, purists will argue that it does not have the nuance of the 360. Being faster around a track, does not make it a better drivers car. Your statements about the Diablo V F50 a bit wide of the mark. The Murci race car was just handed its @ss at the recent Bahrain race by an Aussie 550. In fact I don't really know of any successfull Diable/Murci race campaign in production/GT type racing. An stock F50 will torch a stock Diablo of any variety on a race track, so don't get too carried away with yourself with your one eyed prejudice.

 

Most of the posts i have read on this thread are totally delusional.I don't why the Ferrari name seems to erase all common sense.
Why do Ferrari owners like to get gouged by their dealers and the Factory i will never understand??Heritage they will tell me.No heritage is worth being sold a substandard product at an inflated price and being told at the same time that your are priviliged to be one of the chosen ones.
The best car Ferrari has made the past 20 years is the F40.It was and still is an absolute masterpiece.Since then all their cars have been disappointing.Lately it is getting worse with the arrival of the 612.
The 360 is a fine car but nowhere in the same league as the Gallardo.Ferrari recognized that and came up with the quick band-aid solution,the 430.That is after gouging their faithful customers with the 360CS.
I wonder how i would feel as a 360CS owner,having paid through the roof for the car and the market tanks??If i understand correctly there are more than 10000 360's around.I don't know the exact number but why would anyone pay anything over MSRP for any Ferrari knowing fully well the process will keep repeating itself???
What is so special about the 430 ???Nothing at all.360 with an ugly body kit and more horspower.It might not get spanked by the Gallardo as badly as the 360 but it will still get spanked.It will cost more than the 360 that is for sure.
Is the Gallardo perfect??? Not even close but it is better than any modern Ferrari save the Enzo.
I am sure some of you will quote me some magazine tests and performance figures which will mean jack ****.I drove many 360's before buying a Gallardo and the 360 did not live up to all the hype or the reviews in the magazines.
I suspect the same will be true with the 430.

 

The reviews so far put the 430 as faster and with better dynamics than the Gallardo, the same reviewers that (rightly) put the Gallardo ahead of the 360. Hopefully Audi will give the Gallardo some more power, cut some weight and ideally drop the 4wd in response to the 430.
IMO the best thing to happen to the 360, was the Gallardo. Correspondingly the best thing to happen to the Gallardo is the 430. Competition improves the breed and the consumer wins.
All the negative Ferrari and Lambo talk is just BS. They are both awesome cars that most dream about one day owning.
Grow up boys and girls.

 

Boy there is a lot of magazine racing going on here.

Jim, Audi hasn't confirmed/denied the story for a very good reason, no one will buy the existing inventory if the car is confirmed. I share your opinion that VW will never make money of Lambo, not with the original business plan that was presented to give the deal a green light at least. There are a lot of folks in the VW organization that say that change is needed and the new CEO is chomping at the bit to make change.

Okay, lets get back to the basics, a company exists only for the purpose of making a profit (everything else is a hobby). Ferrari is hugely successful at that right now (except for the fact that they didn't do a good job hedging the dollar/euro, they will make up for that with the new car's pricing structure, the F430 is going to be expensive). Nobody wants to sit on inventory due to finance costs. With a 2 year wait list, guess what, there is no inventory. Brilliant. Being able to walk into a dealership and have a pick of 10 colors is a very expensive thing to do. Ferrari may have us all "suckered", but guess what, it makes sense. These are pure luxury purchases, there needs to be a combination of performance, sex appeal and more importantly, demand/low availability to justify the high prices being charged. A company doesn't have to be everything to everybody (even though VW was trying this approach under previous leadership). They only need to be able to create the minimum amount of product to justify the investment, that's how exclusivity works.

'tis better to be a highly profitable small company than a huge commodity producer...

 

QUOTE "While it is true that the Gallardo is faster, both in a straight line race and around a track, purists will argue that it does not have the nuance of the 360. Being faster around a track, does not make it a better drivers car. Your statements about the Diablo V F50 a bit wide of the mark. The Murci race car was just handed its @ss at the recent Bahrain race by an Aussie 550. In fact I don't really know of any successfull Diable/Murci race campaign in production/GT type racing. An stock F50 will torch a stock Diablo of any variety on a race track, so don't get too carried away with yourself with your one eyed prejudice." QUOTE

Well lets see...... I have never went into a showroom and bought a race car. So i could give a crap less about what some modified car that wears a pretend badge, has a roll cage, and you cant drive to mcdonalds can do. When the day comes that i can go buy and drive a GT or F1 car please let me know. I might be a little more interested in how they finish each week. I would also like to get some cool sponsor decals ordered to stick all over it. As a driver that will be sitting at a redlight, pulling up to a shopping mall,going out to eat, DRIVING ON THE STREET, listning to the radio, running the AC, all i care about is the type of car that i can purchase and drive. An f50 on the track, a 360 on the track, Blah,blah,blah. I could care less ! What are you going to tell you buddy sitting next to you in your new ferrari after a old diablo just smokes your doors at the redlight? " He better be glad we were on the street and not on the track". I am sure he will laugh at that excuse ! As for the "purist that would argue the nunance of the 360" , i hope he wasn't watching the video i just posted, or worse, i hope he wasn't driving it or i think he will be a tad upset about being outgunned in braking, handling and outrun by everything on the track ! In fact thats all i have heard is how great the 360 , the next 430, the f50 is on the track. Just in case you missed it here it is again. WHAT HAPPENED ? And just think lambo is upping the HP ! I cant wait for the next video ! http://www.norcalevo.net/video/motegibattle.wmv

 

Is it just me, or is this nonsensical babble?
My daily driver is an 04 MB S600, which chipped puts out around 650hp and 1000nm torque. It DESTROYS a Gallardo, 360 and probably the 430 in a traffic light race. Does this mean that all Gallardo drivers should sell their cars out of embarrassment having a 2200kg limo eat them alive?
Don't be a tool all your life, read posts before responding, I AGREE the Gallardo is better than the 360, but I'm not so sure it's got the measure of the 430.

 

I find it amazing that Ferrari and Lambo owners can argue back and forth over which car is better...etc...

Both amazing rides with slightly different attributes....

I personally believe the Audi connection for Lamboghini really has improved the ability to use a car like the Gallardo everyday if an owner wanted too....

Thats a big plus for greater sales..

The rumored 600hp gallardo would be impressive but really more of a marketing tool...

Hope it happens as the hp wars make for a lot of fun..

 

Is there any other kind?

Particularly as China steps more and more into the shoes of being THE commodity producer, (I meet a F-Chat buddy in Pebble Beach who has been importing carpet from China. He says that it is the best he has ever seen.) the "First World" US/UK/Euro countries will need to adapt this mantra. Market share ain't gonna be what it used to be.

Getting back to cars, it is probably more appropriate to compare Lambo to Maser than to Ferrari. From a modern perspective, both Lambo and Maser (and maybe someday Alfa?) are start up companies struggling to overcome past negatives. Ferrari, on the other hand, is like Harley. For better or worse, Ferrari could build a go kart and sell every one.

Looking at it from this angle, Lambo needs to offer cars that are better than Ferrari. Because it is in the "investment stage," Lambo should be looking 10 - 20 years down the road, not at this year's P&L.

With respect to VW and Audi, they have got some much bigger fish to fry, like, getting the heck out of Western Europe. If they don't start moving plants to Poland or Asia, they're toast.

I'm also very concerned about Porsche's business plan. They are growing like a weed, but I'm not sure that this is the wisest thing to do for a small car company. But, hey, what do I know?

Dale

 

Do you think that by spouting the same bullsh it will become true?
Total Ferrari sales are 4500. Total Lambo sales are 1300. (04).
In addition total Ferrari sales are sales through to customers. Total Lambo sales are not. Lambo's are stacked up unsold at dealers. The dealers are so stacked up that some, even though counted as sales by Audi, are still sitting at Lambo distribution warehouses.

Those who can buy any of these cars as opposed to those who can't would rather buy a Ferrari. That is fact. Ferrari cannot raise production. That is also fact. If you read their financial's, were familiar with the size of their factory and union obligations you'd stop spouting that they could.

As for Magazine Driving those that can buy these car don't seem to care that
some Magazines and #''s would lead one to believe they should buy a Lambo instead of a Ferrari.

People who buy Ferrari's could buy Lambo's if they wanted to it's just that by a wide margin they don't want too.

 

As the drivers car ?? They picked the G overall but not as the drivers car.

 

Thanks for the laugh. I would love to see a SE30 or a VT "hand it its ass " to an F50 . A GT might compete against it. Gotta give credit where its due..it was faster than a 550 Maranello around the Ring. LOL .

 

Well that was one of the best post i have read !

 

For some reason, Lambo has never been able to get its "entry level" car quite right; Ferrari, after a misfire with the 308 GT 4, somehow chose to imbue its "cheap" car with sexy styling, and a more sporting character than its bigger, heavier 12 cyl. brethren.
The recent Forbes article about the resurgence of Lamborghini as a business included a quote which, at least to me, is telling:

According to Triarsi, the Gallardo brings customers into the showroom--then they can't resist buying the Murciélago.

In fact, Triarsi says that when his dealership sees that a customer can afford only the Gallardo, "we don't take them out in the Murciélago, because once we do it's all over."

Although there are probably a great number of Ferrari customers who, if presented with the choice, would always go with the 12, I think the 8 cyl. cars have an enormous following of their own among people who may not aspire to own a 575 or the latest big GT iteration of production Ferrari. If you look at the number of younger Ferrari buyers, many consider the production 12's to be an old man's car. (This reflects one of my biggest complaints about the direction of Ferrari, that you cannot buy a decontented 12 cyl. car, similar in nature to the Stradale).

I agree with Hatchback's comment that part of the appeal of Lambo vs. Ferrari is its sheer outrageousness. The longtime difference- that, after the Daytona, Ferrari began building "softer" cars, while Lambo stuck to its extremist roots (well, at least going back to the Countach, i look at the Muira as less of an archetype for Lamborghini-and believe me, no criticism is intended of that design, it just wasn't the roadmap for the big cars that followed), is as Hatchback pointed out, less evident in the Gallardo. The more conventional doors, alone, may be a big failing on the outrageousness scale.

For the same bucks, i'd certainly rather have a 6.0 Diablo. As to the horsepower wars, generally, we are in a "golden age" where even the more mundane vehicles boast almost silly numbers. I do think this is about bragging rights, since the drivers of those big AMG cars, at least here in the States, cannot drive them at Autobahn speeds (i think that you might even have a hard time on the A-bahn these days) and, as for carving backroads, i cannot think of a less appealing ride for the money.
I am glad that Lambo is back in the game with more than one model, but if i could get one at sticker among the newest entrants, i'd probably buy a Ford GT.

 

Jeff

Ferrari's and Lambo's race against each other on the track all the time.
This is what happened last time they did.
This is why those that like to win drive MC12's, 360's, 550's, and 575's.
They like to win on the track.

http://www.fiagt.com/results.php

 

QUOTE "Jeff

Ferrari's and Lambo's race against each other on the track all the time.
This is what happened last time they did.
This is why those that like to win drive MC12's, 360's, 550's, and 575's.
They like to win on the track.

http://www.fiagt.com/results.php QUOTE "


These are GT cars , they are not cars that i can pull the window sticker off of and hit the road. On the track Ferrari has done well of late but i have not seen this poured into there cars they sell. The use there racing heritage as a sales pitch but it is not there in the cars that you and i can buy.Jeff Gordon has been winning races for years but i dont see GM selling a Monte carlo that can run 200mph. There is a fine line of racing transfered to street cars and ferrari fits this bill. I give them there credit in F1 but just like the Jeff Gordon 200 MPH chevy i cannot buy an F1 car. As in a previous post about me being biased i would like to add that i do love lamborghini but i also love many Ferraris. The 288 GTO, Boxers, and the F40 are three of my favorite cars on the planet !


QUOTE "Is it just me, or is this nonsensical babble?
My daily driver is an 04 MB S600, which chipped puts out around 650hp and 1000nm torque. It DESTROYS a Gallardo, 360 and probably the 430 in a traffic light race. Does this mean that all Gallardo drivers should sell their cars out of embarrassment having a 2200kg limo eat them alive?
Don't be a tool all your life, read posts before responding, I AGREE the Gallardo is better than the 360, but I'm not so sure it's got the measure of the 430." QUOTE

What does this have to do with a F50 outrunning a SE30 or SV ? Have any of you looked at the true specs on this car ? It won't even outperform the F40 it replaced so please get the wool out of your eyes. As for you 650HP benz how could it "destroy" a gallardo but "probably a 430" in a traffic race when both cars are basicaly the same accross the board ? As for the F50 do yourself a favor and look at the specs on this car , the f40 and an SE30. Dont take my word for it.

 

http://www.*************/Comp?sourceList=1455&CompList=1455-1457-1023-1025


I still dont see it. The SE has 5 more HP , 20% more torque but also 150 Kgs more.

The F50 probably produces way more downfoce though.

 

www.************* is a terrible web site for supercar info. Its inacurate and most of the info says N/A. Thats in including how many people who post there are out of control.

 

Most of the info shown here seems pretty accurate.

 

Thanks, I was looking for empirical data, happy to be corrected. As to the statment that Ferrari can't raise production, that is BS, you mean they can't easily raise production numbers.
I don't think anyone here is talking about "magazine buying". The facts are that the Gallardo is an awesome car that is superior in all measurable criteria to the 360.

Why do Ferrari owners have to get so bent out of shape about it? If you prefer your 360 to a Gallardo, despite its performance deficit, be confident enough in your own judgement and tastes to not have to "bash" anyone who disagrees. This comment is as much for the Lambo owners here.

I am in the fortunate situation of having actually owned a Gallardo, which I picked over the 360, but flipped it for a 550, because spending some time with the car, realised that it wasn't "me", so have been through this selection process personally already. I am not a one eyed Ferrari fanatic, I am new to the marque, having bought my first 550 at the start of the year, changing to the Gallardo, then going back to the 550 again, so I don't seem to have the same "baggage" that years of passion seems to bring. I just buy what I like, not what people on Internet forums, magazines etc tell me I should like and I don't need to cry when someone disagrees with my choices.

The Lambo with 550-500hp is going to be one hell of a car. If they make the steering and chassis more communicative, remove the 4wd, add a gas lift to the front end for clearing kerbs and lose weight, I'm there, bye bye 550, hello Gallardo MkII. BTW I already have an order in on the 430, because it seems like on hell of a car. If I don't like it, I'll flip it, otherwise I'll keep it until something better comes along.

 

Jeff
You brought up race track performance, when comparing the 360 and the gallardo, then went on to basically state that the Diablo would eat an F50 and it was an embarasment to the marque. Don't run and hide behind traffic light racing becuase it doens't suit your purposes. An F50 belongs on a track, it is not a boulevard poseur (well I'd be disapointed if it was used as one), and in this role as ultimate trackday weapon, is vastly superior to a Diablo. If I want the fastest traffic light racer, I'll but a GTR, put on a big turbo kit and blow every Ferrari/Lambo into the weeds.

 

Of course you would see a five year-old model that Lambo specifically wanted to outgun with it's newest model, in your mirror. If that's all you wanted you should have saved your money and bought a Vette.
My point is that Lambo/Audi should compete toe-to-toe with the Ferrari's entry level, the way Porsche always does, or the way the 430 does even more with less HP and TQ than the Gallardo. They certainly have the resources to do this and it would make the G more distinct, the way the Pagani Zonda is unique and distinct, whether you compare it to an Enzo or a Carrera GT.

Your thoughts,



Cavallini

 

The 430 loses to whom? An Enzo, a CGT, a Murci, maybe a GT2, but nothing else, in any respect. Check your stats.


Forza,'


Cavallini

 

If you are going to use Best Motoring test as an example I have to disagree with you Lambokid about the Diablo beating the F50. Just watch this video:

http://www.racingflix.com/getvideo.asp?v=256


The Ferrari F50, Porsche 911 GT2, Honda NSX-R, Porsche Gemballa TT, Lamborghini Murcielago, and the Porsche 911 C4s were all raced and although the Murcielago (which basically have the same performance as the Diablo) came at a very good third place, it simply could not touch the F50 which was leaving all the other cars behind in the track.


--

Though I agree a 600 HP G car and 700 HP M car is going to be fantastic!!! I just hope the "radical new styling" will make the G car better looking (its a great looking car but looks not so good in some angles)

 

Stephen
I agree with you about the G and the Murcie. I think they are great cars.
If the Murcie Spyder had a usable top and a bit of interior storage I'd buy one. I think your looking for the best car for you is the way to go.

You are still wrong about Ferrari's ability to increase production. This is something I know a bit about having been a major shareholder in the Co. that bought and saved Lambo. (C)

VW's investment to enable Lambo to be able to build 5K cars a year was an amount that it's now clear will never be recouped. The best they can hope for is an operating profit and even that is years away.

No one would spend the money to build a new car plant today esp. in Italy and if Ferrari built cars in Poland I doubt they'd have the same cachet. If the Chinese and Russian Market expands they might considerexpanding production someday but that is a big if.

The prices in todays NYT's tell the tale. 02 360 Spyders for 167K, as many new G's as you want for under msrp., 02 Murcie with 10K miles for 205K from a dealer, 575's for 175k, CGT's galore asking msrp. etc., etc.

ANYONE who increases supply in the face of the finite market for 200K+ cars will lose a lot of money and Ferrari is smart enough to realize it.

Jeff
You can by any of the cars running in the FIA and bring them to any club event you want.
360 NGT's
575 GTC's
MC12
Even one year old Ferrari F1 car's
Lambo under Audi are making great cars but on the race track they're far, far behind. (Audi's race cars interestingly are way, way ahead)

BTW if anyone wants to buy 2 Lambo Murcie GTR's + full support equipt. get in touch and I'll point you in the right direction.

Best