SoCal Subcultures....Need your Help...

I am a native of Southern Cal and I hope that I can address your comments.

As far as I have seen, there are snops in every major city that I have ever visited. That being said there are some very affluent areas in So Cal, and some very depressed areas. The closer that you get to the beaches, the more affluent the properties. I would venture to say that you probably won't find a place in the world with more ethnic diversity and population density than Southern Cal (other than maybe New York City).

There are secured communities in most cities that I have been in. They do exist in most of the newer developed areas (usually in the more affluent areas).

Being a native, I have a different perspective. In my observations, native So Californians are very laid back and nice (for the most part). I notice that the people who are the most arrogant are the ones who are transplanted from other areas of the country and the ones who are born into an obscene amount of money (and have no idea what it takes to make it on their own).

It is very disturbing to see any arrogant people anywhere in the world. I for one don't associate with many folks like this. Ironically, you are on a Ferrari web site asking about this is a bit humorous. The reason that I say this is because there are those who buy car marques because of the status that it brings to them. Half the Ferrari's Porsche's, Rolls, Bentley's, Lambo's and other exotics made for worldwide consumption, are sold in Southern California. For this very reason, you will see snobbiness being more prevalent than in other places. At the same time, you also run into folks like Bruce Meyer (a widely recognized car collector) and Jay Leno as being very humble and friendly. There are plenty of nice people who own exotics and don't own them to worship.

There are plenty of subcultures around a city with 16 million people living together. It covers over 23,000 square miles of real estate (although much of it isn't populated). Southern Cal's economy would be the 12th largest economy in the world if it were a country. It takes an jet airplane more than 10 minutes on approach to cover the width of LA County.

Needless to say, I suspect that you are comparing apples and oranges. I don't believe that there is anything in your country that could compare to this microcosm... JMO.

I am curious what others who live in SoCal will say here.

Brad

 

I agree with most of what Brad said, but I'll add to it:

-People closer to the beach tend to be more laid back and approachable. I wouldn't necessarily equate affluence with arrogance if they live in a coastal community- the further inward you move the more snobby they get, even if they don't have the cash to back it up.

-Gated communities are a necessity, and some people have gates around their homes in addition to this. It's not really supposed to separate the 'haves' from the 'have-nots' so much as it just controls traffic, lowers instances of crime and maintains the area. People will park in your neighborhood, waltz through your garden and drop beer cans everywhere if you don't have something in place to prevent it. Having your 5 year-old run over by some stoned surfer isn't exactly ideal.

-Native Californians really do share a common bond that's unique to the rest of the state. I can't put my finger on it, but it usually has to do with not slamming on the brakes when you see a movie being shot on the sidewalk, staying in on Saturday nights (it's a zoo anywhere you go) and it's not necessarily 'showing off' but rather involving others in your adventures. Ironically, I don't really get along with anyone who's not local, but I get along well with those from outside of the country. It's the other 49 states that I don't like.

=Chris

 

After typing all this, I'm not sure if it's helpful, but damn if I'm just going to delete it!

Also a SoCal. (Huntington Beach) native, and an anthropology degree holder to boot. (Make sure your wife tries researching through the academic system and looks into cultural anthropology as a topic; papers have been written on topics very similar to this).

I generally agree with the above two replies, they are fairly accurate (always exceptions). I am especially fond of Brad’s “I notice that the people who are the most arrogant are the ones who are transplanted from other areas of the country”; it’s so true once you really sort the folks out.

A few other thoughts:
- I think the “social subculture” term your using can be applied to many different subcultures, more than just “wealthy/rich.” I think it is clear from your post that this is the demographic concentration on which your focusing, not say, the hollywood stunt-man subculture. I think the word “subculture” may have a different meaning between AUS and the US. I would suggest “gated community” as a search term.
- Gated communities have been established for many purposes, but too characterize them residents in general is just not possible. An example:
There is a gated, beach-side community that lies between the Los Angeles and Orange Country county lines, called Surfside. Two long rows of houses, one row being on the sand, the other maybe 50 feet from the sand, all nestled between PCH and the Pacific Ocean. It has extreme flooding problems in heavy storms, has a navy ordinance loading yard within eye-sight, doesn’t have the easiest street/freeway access, etc. For all the “issues,” it remains a very desirable piece of land with million dollar plus houses. Across PCH, which is not on the beach but rather a small harbor, million dollar plus houses also exist, in tracts without gates (well there are those with gated entrances as well there too). Surfside has some notable residents (or had); let’s look at them.
Cameron Diaz, who apparently loves the beach, and for whom the gate offers a little extra privacy. She’s there not because it’s Hollywood’s “must have,” but rather for the love of the beach.
The gentleman who “invented” soft contact lenses, and then sold to Bausch & Lomb, also lives (actually lived) there. Couldn’t tell you any more about him except that people said he was rather wealthy, but an “old school” beach hippy. He may have been as happy in Surfside as he would have been in coastal Maine; who knows. Probably rich, but a real down-to-earth, well-below-his-means person.
And then there are the regular families who bought at the right time, have held onto their property, and for whom the area is no better/no worse than anywhere else they’ve looked. Definitely, not the upper tier of wealth, and not snobby.
I guess my point in all of this is that you cannot characterize the residents of a gated community too well. If you really want to chase after the areas that are going to be gated, full of rich and/or wealthy people, then the focus needs to be on areas (and this is my personal guess) like Brentwood/Beverly Hills, Coto de Caza, etc.; places where it’s “in” to be living. But still, you’ll get some normal folk in there too. Ok, down rambling.

-dp
On a totally different note, the old folks (parents) just got off Qantas Flight 11 from Sydney about an hour ago. Talk about coincidence.

 

Mike - having lived in both Sydney and LA, at one level what you are looking at in Los Angeles is not that much different than the various clusterings you get in Sydney. So there are the Eastern Suburbs types, for example, compared to Westies, compared to North Shore, etc. Same thing here, just a lot more spread out. Also the demarcation is a bit more general and socio-economic here than in Sydney and Melbourne, since the influx from Europe, Asia and the Middle East in Sydney and Melbourne is more recent that the West Coast of the US, particularly with respect to Europeans. We don't really have big Greek or Italian communities in the same way that Melbourne and Sydney do, but we do have a vibrant Koreatown area, for example.

As for the gated communities, some kind of do make sense from a traffic standpoint, particularly in the older areas of west LA as people try to find ways around the clusterfark of the freeways here. What used to be side streets can get turned into another traffic jam pretty quickly. However, other gated communities are (IMHO) an effort to keep out the riff raff. One of my partners' wives is a real estate agent in an affluent area of the San Fernando Valley, and he was telling me not that long ago that the various domestic help that gets employed in some of these communities (as well as the residents themselves) have given out the codes to the gates, so after a while there is a heck of a lot of non-resident traffic going through some of these communities anyway.

So anyway, one can certainly generalize somewhat about various areas here in LA just as you can in Sydney but I'm not sure it is all that much different than anywhere else.

Except for the movie people, who are all complete tossers.

Cheers
Kevin

 

Mike:

I think that many who come from out of state many times have a their own levels of intensity in the their living and work environment which inevitably rolls over when they move. Case in point, in New York the business folks tend to eat dinner very late and go out and do nightclubs afterwards. Career focus tends to take precedense over family life (at least until you have accomplished what you want). My North Eastern friends tend to be a bit more vocal and intense.

In CA, nothing is centrally located in a "downtown" area and we do not have a strong infrastructure of subways to get everyone around. CA people tend to live a bit more narsasistic lifestyle and will spend more time in gyms working out or running outdoors and eating earlier. and lighter.

Many come out here for the entertainment industry and take on a certain image of what they should be like. I have many friends in this business who are natives with extensive mainstream experience. They throttled back their careers to spend more time with their families (probably because they came from divorced families). I think that east coast people living out west are more intimidated by West Coasters, than the other way around. I think that West Coasters tend to not care enough about anything enough to go over the top. It seems to be that east coasters are much easier to rile up than the west coasters.

The other thing is that many east coaster aspire to move west for the weather (or to Florida when they get old). That doesn't apply to the west coaster wanting to go east. The only things that drive Californians out is the overcrowding and the intensity of the crowd (mostly made up of out of towners).

The weather in Southern Cal doesn't get much better anyplace else in the world. How many places do you know that are warm in the winter and mild in the summers with almost no rain or foul weather? You can ski, go to the beaches, the desert and Mexico all within a couple of hours.

The only liability that scares the crap out of out of stater's are EARTHQUAKES. I love watching their reaction... like they want to pack it in and move back to the east. It's hilarious!

Brad

 

Most people I know are not from here. Nobody cares. There is a highly sensitive illegal alien problem that is a big stink. But from out of state? No biggy. People around the world are pretty much too self-conscious to notice small stuff.

When the weather is bad back east and in the north people say "you're lucky" etc etc.

What is funny is a couple friends of mine that are from here, moved to Seattle Washington and Portland Oregon make crappy comments about Californians that move up there and "ruin it" and inflate real-estate values, etc. Hellllooooo...how long have YOU been there now? And you were different?

Some observations of Americans from people overseas crack me up. My good friends in Europe think we know zero or care nothing about the rest of the world, and there is a common opinion we all hold. Fact is so many here were not born here. Or at least their parents weren't. There is no "groupthink". There is more diverse backgrounds than most any country in the world.

As to the "Society" question. At the end of the day...most are trying to pay bills, keep their kids from sneeking out at nite, not get a speeding ticket, and hang with a friend on the weekend. Like most countries.

 

Hey Mike, hope this will help a tad. Keep in mind this is the perspective of one man, and by no means is a complete picture of ANYTHING. Just a few thoughts and observations.

First off, in Southern California, particularly in Orange County, property values increase exponentially in correlation to how close to the ocean a property is.

I currently live on Newport Harbor in Newport Beach, CA. I recently moved to this harbor (actually, back to this harbor) from Huntington Harbor in Huntington Beach, CA. Both of these cities are in Orange County, CA.

I can give you my observations on the MAIN subcultures within these two Orange County beachtowns. I believe there are (multiple) subcultures in EVERY city in Orange County, and the relationships between them are largely based on socioeconomic standing, in my opinion.

There are most definitely subcultures, almost more like community cliches, between city borderlines. Huntington Beach is, generally, a more laid back, surfer/beach town, with a concentration on family life and middle class, beachside living. Newport Beach is, and traditionally has been, an upper class community that has attracted a multitude of wealthy and celebrity residents. This is not to say that Huntington does not have its share of wealthy, upper class, it DOES, but I see key differences in attitudes and behaviors that would indicate the existence of subcultures. In Huntington Beach, I have observed that there is less desire to make a showing of wealth, when contrasted to the wealthy of Newport. Designer clothes are not so common, extremely expensive cars are not so common, perhaps even cosmetic surgery is...not so common. In Newport, one could, while enjoying an iced frappuccino outside Starbucks in Corona del Mar, count Ferraris, Prada handbags, and breast enhancements, and might obtain results of 3, 4, 9, respectively, in the time it took to finish the drink. These numbers would be unusual just about anywhere. My point in this is that in Newport Beach, the demonstration of wealth is a key aspect of Newport Beach's own subculture.

In Huntington Beach, surfing is a particularly strong aspect of its culture. It has even nicknamed itself "Surf City". Surfing Championships are held in Huntington each year. Another aspect of this city is multicultural openness. There are large areas within Huntington of strong hispanic population, and these areas are allowed to be as they are. Newport Beach, generally, is not so open-minded. Racial compositions are certainly a difference of subcultures as well.
In recent years however, Huntington has turned it eye towards the finer parts of Newport, and has developed expensive, guard-gated tracts lined with multi-million dollar homes, and formed wealthy enclaves.

In regard to attitude: How people view the attitudes of those who live in the wealthy enclaves of either Huntington Beach or Newport Beach is a moral judgement. If one believes that the pursuit of wealth, to accrue wealth, and to use that wealth, then that person would most likely see those residents as being "snobby" or "mean". One who believes all of the above to be proper and fine, then that person would believe those residents to be hard-working role models. Stereotypically, Newport Beach has a poor reputation among a lot of Orange County for having snobby attitudes towards those who don't live there (i.e. "The OC"). For some, this is true, but its really unfair to judge an entire community based on the words of a few.

To answer one of your questions: There are some in my neighborhood in Newport who would most likely look down on somebody currently living in Huntington, mainly for not "having enough money". However, there were some in my old neighborhood in Huntington who looked down on Newport Beach residents, as "having too much money", and henceforth being "corrupted and greedy, not to mention snobby".


To be fair, I, and I don't think anybody else, could possibly list all of the different subcultures at work in coastal Orange County. Monetary gain is certainly one subculture that can be seen throughout. Surfing is another. Art is another (Laguna Beach in particular). The difference between the coastal cities is the level to which each city takes on these certain subcultures to make a culture of its own. All I can say is that each city has a different feel and a different look.

Lastly, with regard to guard gated communities: In Orange County, guard gates are, first and foremost, STATUS symbols. My last home was worth approximately $200,000 dollars more than homes less than a block away simply because it was inside of a 24/7 guard gated community (this means more than just being surrounded by walls). One thing you must understand - these are NOT like fortresses, with high walls and rows of guards. One "guard" (typically students, or 2nd jobs for working men) is usually it, with beautifully decorated entrances paid for and maintained by the community's homeowner's association. Usually, these communities are surrounded by modest, again beautifully decorated walls. Security is increased, surely, but security is not the first and foremost reasons for these gates' existence. Exclusivity is. The people inside might not think themselves better for living there, but in an area of the world where real estate is such a crucial life investment, that's exactly what a guard gate is - an investment.

Like I said at the beginning, I hope this helps. Feel free to PM me if you need anything.

Dave

 

Here is an article from LA Times not too long ago. This will give you another perspective of the ethnic groups in OC

December 2, 2004

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The Commies Are Coming; [HOME EDITION]

Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 7, 2004. pg. M.4
Full Text (376 words)
(Copyright (c) 2004 Los Angeles Times

The first waves of Vietnamese refugees came to a county that was hardly prepared to greet them with open arms.

Yes, both the South Vietnamese and Orange County were ardently anti-communist. But the county was overwhelmingly white in the 1970s, its time as the seat of the John Birch Society not far back in its history. Residents openly complained that the refugees were taking scarce housing and quietly hissed outrageous accusations that the newcomers were stealing dogs to eat them.

It wouldn't take long for much of the county to change its mind, as the Vietnamese moved into a rundown area in Garden Grove and Westminster that no one else wanted and turned a disintegrating collection of ugly strip malls into thriving Little Saigon, the largest Vietnamese community outside Vietnam. Their children soon took top honors at local high schools.

Among that first wave, and typical of it, was a 10-year-old boy, Van Tran, who three decades later became the nation's first Vietnamese American to win state office (though a Texan remains in a close heat for a legislative seat there).

But as much as Tran's election to the Assembly exemplifies the quick success of the Vietnamese community, it also reflects the transformative winds that swept Orange County.

In the 1970s, when the first Vietnamese arrived, the county was more than 85% white. Two months ago, its white population officially became a minority. Its most ethnically homogeneous school district, Santa Ana, is more than 90% Latino. In Irvine, some public schools make classrooms available at lunchtime for their sizable numbers of Muslim students to pray.

The county even has some Democratic elected officials.

The John Birchers have gone, and "communist threat" is, to most county residents, a phrase from history books. Not to Republican Tran.

For most Vietnamese refugees, the sting of communism isn't a distant memory. They take a dim view of normalized relations with Vietnam, insist that the flag of their old country be flown at official gatherings and virulently oppose anyone who suggests otherwise. Saying that he had received threats after his election, Tran told the Orange County Register, "It's the Commies."

For all that he represents in a new Orange County, Tran's comment was an echo of an Orange County long gone.



Reproduced with permission of the copyright owner. Further reproduction or distribution is prohibited without permission.
Subjects: Communism, Asians, Refugees, Politics, Editorials -- Tran, Van Thai
Locations: Vietnam, Orange County California
Copyright 2004 Los Angeles Time
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one of my reps is a writer, he is an Aussie, read these clips:

http://craig-stephens.com/doc_entwkly_mlo.html 'malibu locals only, rich kid gang' entertainment weekly

http://craig-stephens.com/doc_travel_gq.html from GQ Aust. an LA travel piece.

 

I agree with most of the replies, but I have a different perspective, I am not one of the people living in the ultra high priced area's. not to say that any of those people are not layed back or friendly. I grew up around where tube guy lives, and just finished school. I currently live near riverside where there is a very diverse population, with very different subcultures. there are some fairly wealthy people living in riverside, but not in the consentration as the "beach cities". in riverside, there is a higher consentration of the working class as well as the upper middle class. there is also the presence of the illegal imigrant population in this area. Just recently I took up a position at one of the hospitals in the palm springs area. this area has a high concentration of gated communities and the ultra rich population. although some of these people probably have residences in other places like newport beach etc.. but as it goes, where there are wealthy people, there are the less wealthy people who work for them near by. I don't think that this is a bad thing, the trickle down effect, but just the way that it is. also, if you ever get a chance to go to crystal cove, you will see one of the realy nice(expensive) areas of socal and also see how friendly everyone is.

 

I took this graduate class in Urban Geography and we used this book as a case study for LA.

Check it out..."City of Quartz" by Mike Davis

It's all about LA as a city and how it is different from other major meto areas. Also discussed is how re developers run the city, how the city is defined by urban segregation, and the politics of urban security.

Pretty good read.

 

Funny that reminds me of my geography classes, which were all about cultures in LA. I actually went to a lecture by Davis a while back. Did you know he used to be a truck driver? Amazing story.

Bud, give me a holler if you are in town.

 

Most of these post are incredibly long and discriptive.....


Here is my 2 cents, I go to Aus ( mostly Syndey) about 3 times a year, simply put I find it very much like Southern Cal.


Look around Sydney and you will get your answer

ps favorite spot for drinks....Icebergs @ Bondi Beach

 

With all due respect, living and visiting are two different things. Plus if you're at Bondi that's like going to a popular tourist beach in SoCal - doesn't even scratch the surface of the real vibe of the city.

How is Icebergs since they remodeled?

Cheers
Kevin

 

While I realize that living and visiting are diff I do think I get the vibe when I go. I spend approx 3-4 weeks on each visit & I go 3 times a year, I spend time working with a close group of people I have come to know over 15 years. I am not usually in the tourist areas but spend my time in my bus associates homes and local hang outs.

I realize I don't "live" in Sydney, but I am sure I have a feel for the life style.


On Icebergs...Very Cool, best view (of course), but I like the Modern Decor as well as the Food & Drink.

 

No worries, mate - you will have sensed the changes over time. I guess I was thinking more of the local knowledge about various areas that you typically only get when you live in a place. Not sure which parts of Sydney your mates live in but there is a huge difference between the vibe in the Eastern Suburbs and, say, the vibe in Blacktown or Liverpool (each of which have their own differences) or even Leichardt vs. Wahroonga that you mightn't pick up on unless your biz takes you right around the city.

We're gonna try to pop down in the NH spring and check our stuff and our mates!!

Cheers
Kevin

 

Kevin,

Clearly you know the town well also...

I have been to the Aus Grand Prix (melbourne of course) the last 3 years in a row...that is the trip you should be planning, great time as you can imagine. I have got a running bet with a group of lads I keep meeting at "Pete's Bar" the best place to watch the race from ...a bar behind the paddock.

They keep thinking they can scull a beer faster than the guy from California...they have not won yet!

 

Kevin,

Ya, So Cal is a notch above for sure but Sydney is not a bad place to be.

To echo your point, the last two times I have been to Sydney I stayed in Double Bay, I don't get it...seems like a great little part of town but aside from a few street side cafe's that get a crowd at night, nobody is around.

There are lots of high end little stores but I have not seen anybody in them, the area reminds me of a mini Rodeo drive...exept nobody is on the streets?????

On the people moving thing...while I don't have the numbers to quote, I think you would be surpised how many people are moving out of So Cal on a monthly basis...lots of things happen to cause poeple to move, jobs, the cost of living here etc. But for sure we have plenty of people leaving every month too, The bad news is 2 usually show up up for every one that leaves...

 

Already been in 1999 and 2000 - actually competed in the (then) Dutton Grand Prix Rally both of those years so have done the parade laps around Albert Park, etc. Would like to go again but not sure my better half is that keen.

The trip YOU should be planning is to go to Flemington for Melbourne Cup...!!

Mike - I'd certainly lump Double Bay and Rose Bay together - Bondi is a bit different although we were over it really after they "cleaned it up" for the Olympics and Jamie Packer et al moved down there. We do have a soft spot for the Cosmo on Knox Street in Double Bay is it can be a good perv in the summer. Rose Bay is full of old people...we lived in Little Jo'berg in Vaucluse for most of the time we were there - beautiful as we were on the water but pretty boring neighbourhood, but OK to come home to. I can't believe though that places like the Royal at Five Ways and the Paddington Inn aren't still the same as always?? Also the Lord Dudley was also a good Eastern Burbs local, and of course the Woollahra pub for after the races at the AJC. One of my mates with kids moved to Chatswood West, another to Annandale, both say 4 years ago or so as that was the ring around Sydney that was gentrifying. We moved to Wahroonga - for the space - but it was a bit sleepy for us as well.

When I left in 2001 Redfern was still a bit rough but getting encroached on and Surry Hills was getting expensive, plus the redo of the wharf at Woolloomoolloo and some of the stuff at Pyrmont (overbuilt though I understand). Darling Harbour is a lot cooler now with the restaurants etc down there and there were some happening spots in the City as well like the Establishment (a bit up itself) and a couple of others.

With Sydney certainly a lot of the fun has to do with who your friends are, but I generally found that in Sydney people were more open and also tended to take you pretty much at face value as another bloke in the pub, whereas LA seems to me to want to peg the individual socio-economically pretty quickly. This is a bit different than your original question but I think its a fundamental difference between the two places regardless of how you then break up the area into sub-types.

There is a book around somewhere that kind of lays out some of the fundamental differences between Australians and Americans that your wife may already have, but I found it helpful just in understanding the roots of each of the two nations as a whole. We are similar in a lot of ways but there certainly are some underlying differences that then manifest themselves more subtly in addition to the "subcultures" specific to each of the two places.

Not sure ANY of this is helpful but always enjoy chatting with fellow Aussies (I am a dual citizen) and a pretty big fan of Sydney as well as Australia as a whole. Spent a lot of time on bush tracks when we lived there and saw a big chunk of the country which we quite enjoy - looking forward to moving back when my USD pile is the right size.

Cheers
Kevin

 

Which hotel? My wife used to work at what used to be the Ritz Carlton but is now something else, and the Cosmo is in the Sir Stamford on Knox Street.

Shops in DB close pretty early I think - you might want to stay downtown next time. I am a member of the Royal Automobile Club on Macquarie Street so I stay there, but there are several good hotels right in the city depending on what you like - Westin Sydney on Martin Place, Intercontinental is on Macquarie Street (has a nice bar), Observatory Hotel in the Rocks if you're spending someone else's money, Radisson Plaza is nice, and v. central and at least the bar in Le Meridien is good, too!! From the city you can get over to Darling Harbour, down to the Rocks, etc. Yeah, there is some touristy crap around but you will find the good places too and there is definitely more going on in the city than in Double Bay.

Cheers
Kevin