My 5 year old wanted to know, why everything is made in China ?

I agree with the theory.

The thing is, even the theory of open markets and free trade are dependant on.... open markets and free trade as base Govt. policy from both sides of the equation. Thats not the situation with China.

They allow what is in essense slave labor. They control their currency and prohibit its value being determined by open markets. The use this controlled currency to manipulate commodities markets. They steal and then exploit copywrites and patents. They could care less about environmental standards or any sort environmental protection of any sort. They could care less what happens to workers from a saftey standpoint. These are just some of the issues that demonstrate that trade with China is anything but representative of open and free markets.

This is a big issue I have with libertarians (even though I am one). They assume everyone else will play by our rules. They wont. They will do everything they can to expoit our rules to their own gain while enforcing their own rules on us again to their own gain.


Terry

 

Exactly.

Also, considering that the Chinese own plenty of US politicians dont count on the US ever getting serious about these issues. Not that the US could do much about it if we did decide to get serious.


Terry

 

Good point. These free trade agreements should exclude any country that does not have proper labor laws and a livable minimum wage.

The problem is that there are huge corporations that are benefitting from having their products made in countries like Burma that use slave labor and these same corporations have huge influence in Washington. This brings up the discussion of outsourcing. The problem is that half of these "made in China" or "made in Burma" products are made by American corporations which have outsourced the jobs. Then the products are imported back to the United States and no tarrif needs to be paid due to the free trade agreements. There is really no incentive for any company to keep a factory in the United States. Then they move their headquarters to the Bahamas so they do not even have to pay taxes anymore.

China is not even as bad as many other countries, as they no longer have slave labor and have improved their labor conditions in recent years. The worst of any country is probably Burma, and even India is more of a culperate than China as they have terrible working conditions and factory workers do not make enough money to earn a proper living. Even Mexico is a problem.

The problem in recent years is that these powerful corporations actually discourage these countries from improving labor laws or implementing a minimum wage. Whenever a politician or leader talks of implementing labor laws, they are never supported by our government. When Aristide implemented labor laws in Haiti, the result was that foreign corporations closed their factories and went home. A friend of mine is Haitian and he always says "Aristide chased away all the jobs".

Our government tends to always take the side of the corporations and never takes the side of labor, and that is a big problem. Our leaders have the power to change this big mess if they want to. We will see what they do in the future....

 

Whoah there Komrad! Dont construe me as one of the proletariat masses raving against the evil corporations!

Are you saying the US Govt. should enact some sort of trade restrictions on US corporations who outsource manufacturing in an effort to improve labor conditions in foreign nations?

The labor conditions in Burma are a problem for the laborers in Burma. Its not the business of the US Govt. to ask US consumers to pay higher prices so workers in Burma can enjoy better labor conditions.

If you really want to solve this problem, I do agree that the Fairtax proposal is the best starting point. Totally eliminate all corporate income taxes and you would see companies fighting to relocate operations to the US. There are tons of things we can do to make US companies more productive and competitive.

But dont look for base manufacturing to ever come back here. Do we really want it too? Is working on an endless assembly line producing paper clips really what we want our sons/daughters growing up to do?

Once upon a time, the US was an agricultural society. Then it was an industrial and manufacturing society. Now it is migrating to a service industry and technology development society and who knows where it will go from here. But basic manufacturing is gone never to return. Fine with me.

There are lots of other free trade issues with nations like China and India. Its not black and white.


Terry

 

Blame Walmart. It is that simple.

 

No. I am saying that these free trade agreements, such as NAFTA, should have clauses in them that they only apply to countries that have a certain standard of labor laws and a livable minimum wage.

Even if our government did nothing at all to address this issue, it would be better than what they have been doing for the last 20 years, which has been to give military support to these terrible governments for the sole purpose of preventing labor laws and reform, thus helping corporations who benefit from the cheap labor. That is why you do not hear a peep out of them when it comes to this issue.

The only reason we have labor laws in this country is because of the National Socialist Party and their proposals 80-90 years ago. Without them, we would still have children working 80 hour work weeks in factories for one dollar per day. Then you would be happy because everything would still say "made in America"

 

Why blame Walmart, blame Walmart shoppers!

 

I'd be interested in what your source is about China , Burma, etc.

Mexico & all of South America has rampant corruption, then again so does Asia & Africa. Japan & Brazil may be exceptions to this rule. The whole world needs to clamp down on corruption to have a stronger, better world economy

 

Yes, without this fine class of people there would be no demand for all the crap peddled at WalMart. I go anywhere else before I go to WalMart

 

Most corporations do not pay taxes. I believe it is like 80%. But I have been an advocate of no taxes for corporation for ever. Less would be done in the way of hiding $$ and US might return to a competitive place in the world as a producer of commodities. The employees would be paying taxes and corporation would be hiring even more workers, like what happened with the "new economy" - surplus instead of deficit. However if things go too far you run the risk of deflation which is the achilles heal to the equation.

Capitalism is about free trade, if you opened up the Pandora’s box of unions and how they have stymied the US as a producer of commodities at fair market value, and then we (US) can move back to a world leader of products. But we all know this is not happening in the near future.

Regarding competition I'm all for it. Look what the Japanese auto industry did to improve quality of the US manufactured cars in the mid 70s - drastic improvement in quality, as we were getting out butts kicked.

 

But the japanese werent playing fair. They were dumping product at a loss to claim market share

 

I have spoken w Execs at large Cos about Mexico & the armed robbery & kidnapping there is such a serious problem that a lot of US Co.s will be leaving MX if they dont get their crime under control.

Kidnapping is an industry in Mx & Colombia, the kidnapp bosses have wharehouses were they keep people. Awful stuff.

 

Yes...we would all welcome a return to those glorious days before the unions organized. When 7 year old kids could work 80-hour weeks in factories for 3 cents per day. And if they got hurt on the job, the corporations would not be tied down with all these regulations which require them to actually pay for the medical bills. Those unions are terrible. Think of all the things they have bargained for over the years: a minimum wage, child labor laws, workers compensation, unemployment insurance, or even the 40 hour work week -- all such terrible things. All these terrible regulations hamstring the corporations and they can no longer be competitive with corporations that have their factories in places like Burma, India, or even Sudan. (????)

(I hope you can handle come sarcasm, because I really do not know what else to say in response to your post)

 

Well, I've read so much over the years I cannot remember specific sources, but there are always the usual organizations such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, or even the US State Department. A quick search on google produced the following articles:

Burma:

http://www.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/burma-myanmar.html (read the section entitled "Child Slavery" in the left collumn)

http://ga0.org/alert-description.tcl?alert_id=2002876

http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/slavery/cover.html


India:

http://www.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/india.html
(read the section entitled "Child Slavery" in the left collumn)


China

http://www.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/china.html
(read the section entitled "Child Slavery" in the left collumn)

The problem is that these corrupt governments are being proped up by our own govenrment and many of the European countries as well. Our leaders are more interested in keeping things status quo so corporations can continue to have cheap (or free) labor.

Whenever leaders emerge in any of these countries that are pro-labor, they are branded as socialists or terrorists, and the propoganda machine starts to discredit them. Such has been the case most recently in Venezuela, where our government gave financial and strategic support to a group who attempted to overthrow the democratically elected leader of this country. Due to his popularity with the public, the coup failed and he was returned to power. But 30 years ago such a coup was successful when our State Department supported General Pinochet's coup in the overthrow and murder of Salvador Allende, the democratically elected leader of Chile. And we all know today of Pinochet's glorious human rights record -- he makes Saddam Hussein look like a saint.

They would rather have slavery and corruption than socialism. The former allows corporations to exploit the work force and markets in these countries, the later does not.

 

I agree with you but Chavez really is a scumbg. ALL leaders in S America buy the cheapest votes by destroying the education & middle class then buying off the poor with a mass BBQ. Every Venezuelan I have spoken to loathes Chavez.

He may have won the majority of the vote but that was not the free willof the voters. The people of venezuela are being terrorized by their "leader" who stole the "election" by force, bullying, duress, & threats.

I cant wait to see that Clown out on his Azz

Anybody who chooses Fidel Castro of all leaders as his role model has to be a complete idiot

 

Several international bodies including Jimmy Carter's organization monitored the election and they all said it was fair. Chavez is at a big disadvantage in Venezuela in that the entire media (all the tv stations) are owned by the same corporations that have supported the oposition and they continually bash him.

As far as the middle class, there has never been any middle class in the history of Venezuela. It is a very poor country where 99% of the wealth is owned by less than 5% of the population. Chavez is a socialist and has made reforms towards a higher miniumum wage, stricter labor laws, and has always been pro-worker. That is why despite the relentless media bashing he receives on a daily basis, the poor still like him. But he is accused of the same stuff as discussed above, i.e. chasing away foreign investment. Well, I'm sure if he legalized slavery, the foreign investment would return in a hurry and the Bush Administration would say he was a great leader -- but that does not make it the right thing to do. As far as "every Venezuelan I have spoken to loathes Chavez", did you go to Venezuela and speak to them? Or did you speak to those who travelled here, which would be only the upper class, as 90+% of Venezuelans could never afford to travel abroad, especially not to the United States.

As far as Cuba, have you ever been there? I will tell you that the American media's portrayal of Cuba is like if someone in another country showed the worst neighborhood of the south Bronx as an example of what things are like in the United States. There are many areas where Cuba shines. Obviously freedom of speech is not one of them. But areas such as education, health care, and crime prevention are better than even what we have here in the United States, and are worlds better than other Carribean countries such as Haiti, Dominican Republic, and Jamaica -- these are the countries Cuba should be compared with. There is a reason that Castro won the Nobel Prize two years ago. Ever heard of the organization "Doctors Without Borders"? Care to guess which country contributes the most doctors to this charity?

Yet if you speak to Cuban Americans, they will tell you how terrible things are in Cuba. Well, compared to the United States, things are terrible in Cuba. So are things in Mexico, Bolivia, Columbia, Haiti, Domincan Republic, and many other non-communist countries in Latin America.

Cuba is a poor country. Not because of the Communists. Cuba was a poor country in 1900, they were a poor country in 1950 and they are a poor country now in 2004. But in 1900 and in 1950, what little wealth they did have was controlled by a few elite wealthy businessmen while the rest of the people were starving. Their only valuable natural resources are sugar and tabacco, yet in 1950, all of the sugar and tabacco fields were owned by American corporations. Today they are a country with a 99% literacy rate, where everyone has a job, everyone has a place to live and food to eat, and everyone receives free health care -- a health care program that has more doctors per capita than any other country in the world, and has the lowest HIV/AIDS rate of any country in the world. Today all of the sugar and tabacco is owned by the people of Cuba and the profits from these resources go towards paying for free education (including college and graduate school) for all and free health care for all.

This is the reason our leaders, regardless who has been in the White House, have always been critical of socialist countries. Because they pass laws which make it difficult, or in the case of communism, impossible for our corporations to exploit their people or resources. In the case of Cuba, all foreign owned land was seized in 1959, and became the property of Cuba. Foreign corporations were kicked out. This is what angered our government. Everything is about money. They only use issues like Human Rights, or WMDs, or terrorism as fodder for the masses. That way people can divide the world in half between "good" and "evil" and sleep at night knowing they are on the "good" side. The reality is much more complicated.

 

"But areas such as education, health care, and crime prevention are better than even what we have here in the United States"

Not to turn this link away from China and cheap outsourcing and all that. And not to turn it into it-was-paradise-and-I-hate-Castro diatribe But you just cant throw something like this out and let it stick. Have you been on one of those Potemkin Junkets? Or maybe you are living in the worst neighborhood in NYC??

Better education?

Better health care?

Better crime prevention?

Really?

 

I don´t think that this is true in general. Look at civil aircraft, cars, software, .... ... the best-in-class stuff is designed elsewhere.

The only US products I have at home are traditionally handcrafted.

 

Yeah, really! There are good and bad things to every system, and while communism does a really bad job at growing an economy, it does a very good job at providing services to its people.

As far as education, Cuba has a higher high school graduation rate than we do in the United States, and a higher college graduation rate as well. A higher percentage of Cubans attend universities than do Americans -- this is mostly because college and graduate school are provided to all citizens free of charge. You only have to pass entry exams and you are in.

As far as Health Care, Castro won the Nobel Prize in 2002 for Cubas great strides in health care as well as exporting doctors all around the world. Cuban medical schools are considered the best in the world, even better than American ones. Cuba's medical schools also leave 500 slots open each year for foreignors to attend, also free of charge. Cuba has more doctors per capita than any country in the world. They also have the lowest HIV/AIDS rate far of any country in the world.

And as far as crime prevention, there is almost no crime at all. The one area they have problems with is prostitution, but violent crime is almost non-existant. This is not due necessarily to "crime prevention" but due to everyone having a job and being educated. Crime prevention means more than putting more cops on the street. It means having a society that does not encourage violence and crime.

The one thing you must realize, is that comparing Cuba to the United States is not really a fair comparison. We live in a large country that is loaded with natural resources, has 280 million people, has been around for 200+ years, etc. Cuba as a communist nation has been in existance since 1959 and is a little tiny island with not many natural resources at all. If you want to compare Cuba to other similar countries, good examples would be Haiti, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, El Savador, etc. When compared to these countries, the comparison becomes laughable as one country is an industrialized, educated, 21st century country and the others are third world, dirt road, rural countries where most of the people are starving, illiterate, and are homeless or living in a straw hut with no electricity or plumbing. Yet in 1959, Cuba was like this as well.

 

What other country has a privately built civil aircraft that goes Mach 1 ++ & actually goes into space ? Ha ha

 

1 of my best friends here in Miami escaped from Fidel's prison island with his family when he was a child. I am sure he will tell you wonderful things about Fidel.

As for education the US has the finest universities in the world
Our health care system is expensive but it is very high tech

Now for crime prevention in Cuba, you have to ignore Castro'sown crime to believe that. how many people have died & been tortured by that Jackazz?
If thats not a crime I dont know what is.

Taking away a whole countries rights to travel, free speech, property, and the ability to choose their own destiny & govt is also a Huge crime

 

I just thought I would add something to my last post. Here is a good article written by an American college professor who visited Cuba a couple of years ago:

http://www.valdosta.edu/~tmanning/cubausg

Here are some quotes:

From a technical perspective, Cuba is a nation of contradictions. If one looks at Cuba’s industrial base, individual wealth, and lack of individual freedom it would fall under the umbrella of a third world dictatorship. If one looks at its socialized distribution of food, high literacy rate, low crime rate, and a life expectancy that approaches the United States it appears to be acting more like a first world nation. In many ways the advances made under Castro were made by wisely implementing techniques such as chlorinating water, strictly enforced laws, inoculating children, and guaranteeing the population a basic diet of rice, milk, etc. With the demise of the Soviet Union in the late 1980’s, the aid that propped up the Cuban economy for almost three decades suddenly disappeared and many of the basics, from vaccinations to fuel, have been decreasing in availability. Currently strong trading partners with Cuba include Canada, Mexico and Spain with China starting to gain a foothold in both the tourism (hotel construction, etc.) and manufacturing (bicycles, TV’s, etc.) industries.

While there is clearly a shortage of food for nutritionally balanced diets, medicine, crammed housing, etc common in many developing nations, the Cuban people acknowledge the "Special Economic Period" (1992-present) as temporary and something that one day will be overcome. With its tourism, agriculture (sugar, tobacco, etc.) and mining (nickel, copper), Cuba has established a lifestyle that is the envy of most Latin American countries. Cuba has wisely invested in the biotechnology industry and a strong medical community, opportunities that may continue to raise the island nation of eleven million substantially above many of its neighbors in the Western hemisphere. On the other hand, it is common to find university graduates with degrees in law, medicine, business and engineering working in the tourism industry (driving cabs, bartenders, etc.) because the money is significantly better.

With various sectors of the Cuban industrial sector ready to expand, and its managers measuring their personal success in ration books rather than dollars, one has to question our embargo. It seems that opening the doors to Cuba and flooding the island economy with capitalism will rapidly change in the basic power structure. Although its only my opinion, it seems that most Cubans, both in Cuba and the US, would welcome this approach.

While Cuba spends less than $20 per person per year on health care, the life expectancy of its citizens is similar to the U.S. and it does a better job vaccinating its children, providing expecting mothers with health care, etc.

While Cuba’s income per person per year is in-line with that of a third world nation, its health care and literacy rates are similar to that of an industrialized nation (data for this table and those below is taken from World Health Organization (www.who.org) and the CIA Fact book (Central Intelligence Agency is a US Federal Agency).

Table: http://www.valdosta.edu/~tmanning/cubaus1.gif

Despite its small economic commitment to health care, Cuba’s infant mortality rate is similar to the United States but thirteen times better than Haiti, a country that lies a mere forty miles to the east of Guantanamo Bay. Cuba has done a substantially better job dealing with HIV care when compared to the United States.

Table: http://www.valdosta.edu/~tmanning/cubaus4.gif

 

I beg your pardon? You need to do a little more research. I hope that this doesn't offend anybody, but, before Fidel, the Cubans were known as the Jews of the Caribbean. If there was money to be made, the Cubans were on it. Yes, Cuba had poor people before 1959, but so did the US. Yes, Cuba had social problems before 1959, but so did the US. The difference is that the US kept on growing after 1959, and Cuba went backward.

Dale