0-60 in 3.5, 11.7@123 mph, 70-0 147ft WOW!

Note that Road & Track got identical numbers!

Hmmm...

The R&T numbers are listed in this thread.

 

Identical track, I understand.

 

Whoever said about outrunning it?

The CGT traps a good (at least) 5mph more in the 1/4 than the F430.

 

The software makes a nice estimation, but is not accurate. Information such as individual gear ratios, power curves, and grip levels (tire width, etc) would be needed to accurately calculate straight line performance.

 

The F-40 is considered the purer driver's car, but as I have a few friends who own them and (try to) track them, I can tell you that they cannot be "easily" bumped up to 650 bhp. The standard F-40 has enough problems with overheating turbos and malfunctioning wastegates as it is. In fact, I have never seen an F-40 complete more than a few high speed laps before blowing something up. In LM form it just gets worse. If you don't mind a full time pit crew and engineer following you around you can actually get a few laps out of an LM. The reason people love these cars is that there are few electronic babysitters, thus allowing you to really drive the car. But I've seen more F-40s awaiting repairs than I have on any track.

The F-50, Enzo, and presumably the 430 are considered more reliable (and as a general rule all forced induction motors suffer from more reliability problems compared to their naturally-aspirated counterparts), but also have more technical wizardry to prevent you from doing something stupid. While this is great for the average driver, it is not so great if you really want to push the car to the limits. I understand that the F-430 will allow you to disable the CST, but the ABS and traction control cannot be disabled. There are many excellent drivers who can threshhold brake better than any ABS system. At least on the 360 you could shut that off as well. I too have heard that the first year's production of 430s is sold out, and that all of them are paddle shifters. What's up with that?

I just have a problem with any car interfering with my driving because I exceeded some parameter loaded into its CPU. I am seriously thinking of going to a good old American iron lump with monster torque in a nice foreign body with no ABS, no traction control, no yaw control, etc...... The Ultima GTR/Noble M400 look like good bets for the track. It's been done before, and certainly worked out well for Carrol Shelby. I know this is heresy on this forum, but for those of you who regularly track your F-cars i'm sure you'll understand how I feel.

Sorry for the ranting.

 

The F-40 is considered the purer driver's car, but as I have a few friends who own them and (try to) track them, I can tell you that they cannot be "easily" bumped up to 650 bhp. The standard F-40 has enough problems with overheating turbos and malfunctioning wastegates as it is. In fact, I have never seen an F-40 complete more than a few high speed laps before blowing something up. In LM form it just gets worse. If you don't mind a full time pit crew and engineer following you around you can actually get a few laps out of an LM. The reason people love these cars is that there are few electronic babysitters, thus allowing you to really drive the car. But I've seen more F-40s awaiting repairs than I have on any track.

The F-50, Enzo, and presumably the 430 are considered more reliable (and as a general rule all forced induction motors suffer from more reliability problems compared to their naturally-aspirated counterparts), but also have more technical wizardry to prevent you from doing something stupid. While this is great for the average driver, it is not so great if you really want to push the car to the limits. I understand that the F-430 will allow you to disable the CST, but the ABS and traction control cannot be disabled. There are many excellent drivers who can threshhold brake better than any ABS system. At least on the 360 you could shut that off as well. I too have heard that the first year's production of 430s is sold out, and that all of them are paddle shifters. What's up with that?

I just have a problem with any car interfering with my driving because I exceeded some parameter loaded into its CPU. I am seriously thinking of going to a good old American iron lump with monster torque in a nice foreign body with no ABS, no traction control, no yaw control, etc...... The Ultima GTR/Noble M400 look like good bets for the track. It's been done before, and certainly worked out well for Carrol Shelby. I know this is heresy on this forum, but for those of you who regularly track your F-cars i'm sure you'll understand how I feel.

Sorry for the ranting.

 

thats interesting gary, because you are using the same methodolgy as i do!!!!

 

very good point Dr....everyone talks about increasing the boost on blown engines to get astronomical hp rating....its easy to increase the boost, but at what cost to reliability? the laws of physics and mechanics say that you are increasing the stress on the engine and drive train parts dramatically..this has to have an effect on short term and long term reliability,,,

 

It is possible to reliably improve an F40s power to considerably higher numbers, however execution of design / upgrading is very key. It is not, by any measure, a cheap process.

--Dan

 

Holy crap! F40 owners out there, is this true? How disappointing.

Not so, the 6-spd is available, I don't know what the percentage is going to be in the first year (maybe 90% F1), and perhaps the first few months are all F1, but the standard gearbox is in fact still available.

Gary

 

lets hope so..i would love to drive a 6speed 430!!!! with a tubi no less, of course!!!!

 

Reality is that an f40,f50,enzo, are much lighter than a f430, therefore no matter how well the computer hooks up a f430 for 0-60 once on the roll the lighter cars should have an edge. I too like the idea of a pure drivers car, but from what I have read of the f430 the electronics do not interfere with enjoyment they enhance it. Even EVO in england known for its purity of driving experience says the egear enhances the fun in this package. The only car I know of previously where electronics enhanced the feel and performance was the nissan skyline, so it can be done.

I am the last person to go for progress for progress sake but if the f430 has really created a leap forward in tegration and experiece then thats great, time marches on technological "improvements" are inevitable and in this case the improvements seem good.

I think where we are is that earlier ferrari cars were like ersatz lemans cars, great fun in a raw way. the f430 like the enzo is more a ersatz modern grand
prix car, technology heavy very intese with things happening real fast, and no less fun, just enjoyment in a different way.

Solly your ultima/noble idea is good. Possibly such a car fitted with a v12 motor from a 550 or 412 would be the best ferrari trackday tool, that way you can have the necessary rawness with the power range of a thoroghbred, while doing without the crudity of a cast iron lump, I wonder whether it is doable, alternativly since a zr1 motor went into a vette it will probably be an easyish fit into an ultima.

 

I would love to stick a Ferrari v-12 into an Ultima. Unfortunately there is no room without considerably modifying the fabulous chassis which Lee Noble and Ted Marlow have spent years perfecting. It would probably throw off the balance as well. As the Ultima chassis was used as a testbed for the McLaren F-1, I can't see messing with that kind of success just to get a prancing horse somewhere on the car. Plus the factory won't support any cars with non-recommended engine/tranny combinations. (Chevy 350 derivatives and Porsche/Getrag transmissions). The idea of 0-60 in 2.9 seconds at 10% of an Enzo's cost can't be ignored. 0-100-0 in 10.3 seconds is pretty astounding as well.

The only cars I have ever seen that resemble an Ultima, but with Ferrari power, are the old Camel Lights cars (Spice-Ferrari in particular). The engine and transaxle take up so much room that I literally could not get into the car, even with the seat removed.

Even if I could get it done, the snobs at certain events would not let me run a bastardized Ferrari (Bill Hubble's race car was refused at Cavallino, and his car is basically a heavily modified Testarossa). Then there is still the matter of $40,000 engine rebuilds.

I still love Ferraris and will keep my garage as full of them as I can afford, but after spending the price of a 360 Challenge on 2 seasons of maintenance and repairs I just can't see the value. I'm not Michael Schumacher, I'm just a weekend track guy.

I have been promised a test drive in the 430 Challenge as soon as it arrives in the US. Maybe it will be so fantastic that I'll immediately drop all these other ideas. I'll keep you all informed.

Decisions....decisions....

 

No need to be sorry. I was in Japan earlier in the week and had the opportunity to voice my opinion on a sportcar that will probably be arriving in the USA (for the first time, hint hint) in 2007/2008. Having two Ferraris among gearhead buddies in the business does count for something. They asked what I wanted and I said the only two things that I really want are a 6 speed manual gear box and a button on the dash that turns off all driver aids. "ah Nielsen-san, sounds reasonable".

If all goes according to plan, I should be getting one of the first ones off the boat and it will be built to my specs (and maybe have some Japanese market only goodies on it).

 

Solly, I hear where youre comming from. Personaly I always loved the zr1 motor, a real thoroghbred, unfortunatly not in the most rigid of cars. Have you considdered one of these in an ultima.

The whole thread comes to a pet subject of mine. A place to run interesting cars, like era gt40's noble p4's proteus dtyoes ultimas etc without the kit car hopped up fiero crowd, and at the same time avoiding being shunned by the car snob poseurs. I cannot belive williams testarossa was refused, a most interesting project of "what if ferrari had raced the testarossa"

I believe there is a good opportunity for recerations and other subsatntive track/street cars to play. The future of high performance driving involvs the track, not everyone is a car badge snob, but some people do want to run with real performance cars, in a congenial atmosphere, and if these cars are specials like williams ferrari, recreations like era or new builds like ultima, so what, as long as the car is a "real" performance car and not some plastic wonder with mustang 2 suspension.

Maybee a lemans recreation club. Then these cars will have a place to play a good market and repectability. We could call it the Lemans 2 series. Maybee all cars have to be streetable too.

 

An interesting point about the extent to which F430 driver aids can be shut down - here is what Ferrari have to say:

RACE: this setting must be used only on the race track. Gear changing is even faster to minimise gear shifting times. CST intervention is reduced to a minimum (the engine management only cuts the engine when absolutely necessary).

CST: activates or deactivates the stability and traction control. With the manettino set to off, the driver has full control over the car’s reactions. The only driver aids that remain active are those that cannot be overridden such as ABS and EBD (electronic brake distribution). With the CST deactivated, the electronic differential has a specific calibration which exalts the car’s incredible levels of handling and roadholding when free of stability controls. Gear shift speeds and damper settings are the same as in RACE.

 

WCH-correct. But notice how many electronic aids still remain on, even when you turn them "off". I am speaking specifically about track use to get the full potential of these cars. Certainly there is a place for these electronic aids in street use, but nowhere in the USA (perhaps you must live in Germany and be an autobahn commuter at 150 mph in the rain while talking on a cell phone to fully appreciate these aids. And an "Ice" setting??? Who drives a 490 bhp tightly sprung no ground clearance car with minimal tread on ice?

Boxerman- I'd love a series where you could keep out the idiot ricers (but let the good ones in), and basically drive what you brung, as long as it won't fall apart and kill anyone else like some of the Mustang kit cars you mention. I'm not into marque snobbery. Just open track, good and courteous drivers, balls to the wall (with rules), and go home with the car in the same shape you brought it in. Did 2 PDA events in the 360 Challenge last summer. Every car imagineable was on the track at some point, including an Impreza wagon, but it was well run, the people were great, very low key, and as long as you stayed in the Advanced or Instructor group you had little to worry about some kid with his turbo nitrous Civic out for his first track day (with no training). I'm going to do it again this summer. not one incident in 2 days at Pocono. Trackmasters at Watkins Glen is also really good for driving whatever you want, no snobbery, great instructors, and once they sign you out solo (which can take some time) it's 4.5 hours of track time every day!!

The Ultima will take the Corvette motor, but i'm looking at an 18 degree Chevy 377 c.i. 640 hp @6500 rpm Dry Sump 545 ft. lbs. torque @5000 rpm made specifically for the Ultima. check out www.amerspeed,com. That's 640 bhp for a car weighing 2300 lbs. with all fluids. Each horsepower pulling 3.6 pounds. The F-430 weighs in at about 3,000 lbs with 490 bhp, each horse pulling 6.1 pounds.

Should be interesting

 

"But notice how many electronic aids still remain on, even when you turn them "off"."

Solly - Yes, exactly, I'd prefer to be able to shut them all off. Like you, I'm toying with the idea of a 430 Challenge car.

 

Solly the track days sound interesting. I am thinking of getting an M3 for light commuting and some track play, leaving the boxer to age more gracefully and available for one or two light club events. The ultima witha 377 certainly has the go. I would advise against a 383 having run such a car for a few years, the long stroke is not he best combo if you like any type of refinement. As to where to really enjoy such a car....

My suggestion is a club to include all thorougbred bastard cars. Authentic cobra, ctype,dtype,gt40, etc replications. In other words cars with origional shape bodies, origional stlye frames suspension and engines, as well as including things like caterhams ultimas etc. Any car like a moded e type ferrari etc would be welcome too. It seems that these cars are every bit as good and exciting as origional builds but are ostracised by the car snob community because they lack historic "provenance" and thier existance threatens the values of old build origionals. In other words something that operates like the ferrari club but with real drivers who have cars that arent exactly hopped up ricers, kitcars or manufactured exotics.

Perhaps these are what we should call "recreated" and "built" exotic cars. Maybee just call it the exotic car club, any exotic accepted, no poseurs only drivers need apply. Track events, rallies out west and a few hillclimbs. Kinda like the car clubs that existed in europe just before and after ww2.

Then when these cars have a place to run in like company there will be more of a following and more enjoyment to be had.

 

That's an excelent idea. Some of the lesser-known "boutique" manufacturers like Noble, Ultima, Superformance (gorgeous Daytona coupe, super quality, super fast), Caterhams, etc. are becoming more popular here as their performance in Europe gets more and more press. Some of these cars are just incredible machines (Noble M400 won Track Car of the Year for 2004, and runs a modified Ford Duratec V-6 with a blower-talk about cheap and easy maintenance!). Too bad they can't be imported as complete cars at this point. A lot of people shy away from having to do anything mechanical at all, even hiring a mechanic to just drop in an engine and tranny. People also worry about how to service such a car when there is no service network in place.

A club for these types (and any other, as long as the drivers are good) is an excellent idea. The benefits of such a club could include track days, mechanical support, knowledge-sharing and the rallies and hilclimbs you mentioned.

How does one go about founding such a club? And since we are geting way off topic from Ferraris here, maybe a separate website, or if Rob is interested, maybe a new forum here on these other exotics?

 

Forgot about the Superformance coupe, an excellent exaple of a built exotic. I am prepared to do some work on such a club, assuming we can getogether a few owners. Ferraris lamborghinis and most porches, as exotics would be of course be welcome too. Seems like a new thread on the idea is in order?

 

R&T got similar figures to C&D with a different car. Furthermore, C&D claimed that a Euro magazine got similar results. The figures quoted by Evo, MT, etc. were all factory estimates. Now, I know that the 1/4-mile time and the 0-60 dosn't add up with the power/weight ratio that the F430 has. Could Ferrari be underquoting hp? That was the case with the Ford GT, after all......

As for C&D's ridiculous numbers on the SL600, several owners of current V12 M-Bs that I've talked with have told me that on the dyno, that V12 registers rather more hp than M-B's quotes.

 

Actually, what C&D said was:
"Fearing a test-box meltdown, we consulted with a rival magazine that was radar-gunning another F430 driven by a factory pilot. Results: practically identical."

That rival magazine would be R&T then.


Out of curiosity, of the V8 Ferraris (excluding the turbocharged F40's) that have been dynoed, how many have exceeded the factory numbers?

 

Usually its the contrary

 

Great idea. New thread let's go!