77 308--What's the best way to fix my soft suspension?

Steve,
OK, you guys have gotten me torn! Should I go for the full-on custom-fab coil-over, or just replace the KONIs? Based on the board's average comments, I'll probably "spring" (get it?) for the coil-over set. No sense at throwing money at a problem, but only making a small improvement....

Do larger anti-roll bars make a big difference in body lean? I guess I can experiment by starting with new coil-overs and then see how much lean is occuring.

As far as A-arm bushings go, is a visual check the only way to determine wear? Are there 4 per corner, 16 total? What is the board's preference, rubber or poly?

Lastly, do the shock bushings need to be replaced? The coil-overs probably ship w/ new ones (they should, for the price!)

Greg

 

Greg, many of us seem to feel that the arm bushing should be replaced and odds are the ones on your car are originals and will need replacing (Nick's shocks/springs came loaded with new bushings). So yes, you will need 16 Energy Suspension bushings. Since you will be replacing the shocks/springs, you may as well change out the bushings as the labor hours already have some bits off the car. Many folks seem to feel the Energy Suspension Graphite are the best bet.

As for the sways/roll, that is your call. The Euro 85GTS QV here has the larger STOCK ones and they seem fine with the new suspension (see http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11581&highlight=rochlin+suspension ). Of course going with bigger sways/roll can't hurt and since you will already be working on parts in the same area...

Sounds like, well... me. In for a penny in for a pound. In the end i am soooooo glad i dumped the stock system. Just save up for 17 inch rims being 8-/9-inch width with Mich Pilot PS 2 tires

Oh what an expensive web we weave when we begin to upgrade

i am a bad, badn man... some pics to entice you further

Oh, and eventually you will want to upgrade the brakes...

BAD STEVE BAD BAD!!!!!
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Steve,
Thanks, I'll look into your suggestions.

Actually, this car already has 17" wheels, Speedline F-40 style! Really nice!

Greg
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Greg,
To the best of my knowledge, the aftermarker coil-over shocks cannot be mounted in the car without modification of the A arms (grinding them to make more room). It's a very expensive route if you don't do it yourself, and few of us will have the heart to take a grinder to our A arms! Steve (enjoythemusic) has done some incredible upgrades to his suspension and brakes for the purpose of tracking his car, but they were phenomenally expensive. (Steve, you want to chime in here with a number?) From what you are saying about just making it run a little tighter, I would seriously try the new shocks first for $500. Most people drive their 308's pretty casually and the stock suspension when properly set up is a nice compromise, and doesn't beat the hell out of you. If that isn't enough, I would then look into stiffer springs with the stock shocks. Yes, you can make a 308 handle like a race car--the suspension geometry is there--but it's gonna cost some cash. Even just the suspension bushings if you aren't doing it yourself will be pretty expensive. I did a write up on what's involved when I did mine. Search the archives when the pictures are back up. It's a lot of work.

Birdman

 

Birdman,
I really appreciate what you are saying. I will NOT track this car. I just want it to stop bottoming out over bumps at speed. A little less lean would also be great. I forgot about the grinding of the a-arms to fit the coil-overs. Sounds pretty precarious, even though I'm told the integrity of the a-arm is not compromised.

Are you aware of a source for springs that will fit over replacement KONIs? I may need to look at replacing them also, because I'm probably dealing with 27-year old components here.

Again, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts w/ me. I do NOT want to get into a "Throw alot of money at this car to make it right" mode!! Actually, the car is super nice, other than the soft suspension. Great recent paint job, and super clean interior, not to mention the 17" Speedlines! I'm the lucky recipient of a rare, clean 308!

Greg

 

Greg,
I do not actually know of a source for new aftermarket springs, but I'm sure some people here do if you need to find something. Seems to me that bottoming out and corner lean is mostly a result of soft/compressed springs more than shocks (which mostly control damping). So new springs (even stock ones that are fresh which you can get from a number of places) will improve the situation for you.

My springs are a little compressed from being old too, but it reduces the fender gaps and makes my car look cool, so I don't worry about it! My car is amazingly low, I can't even go over a speed bump or a ramp. I have to be careful driving it on bumpy roads. Unfortunately, the stock ride height is a bit high for my taste. I have never liked the massive gaps between the wheels and fenders in a "properly" sprung 308!

But hey, I drive mine like a little old lady. Cops are drawn to me like moths to a flame. I drive my Toyota more aggressively.

Birdman

 

Birdman,
I'll do a site search and try to find a source for stock-fitting springs.
I wonder if after I spend money on KONIs and new stock springs, I'll have spent about what a new adjustable, lighter coil-over set would cost ($1300 from Tristram in Beverly Hills).
I think these are the same one Nick @ Forza sells for $1600.

Anybody ever heard of Tristram Buckley?

Greg

 

Maybe you're right. But will you have to cut the A arms? That gives me the heebie jeebies!

 

Well, as I understand it, there's only a small amount of grinding involved to make room for the mount point. He swears there's no lessening of structural integrity... I'd like to see pictures of that.....anybody have 'em?

Greg

 

No. The stock springs are way too soft even new, 30 years ols they are softer. My first attempt at improving the handling was to make specail collars for the konis and put 2.5" ID springs on them. That let me buy pretty much any spring rate I wanted, and it helped quite a bit...but the shocks are still maginal IMO. It is the shocks much more than the springs that make the ride harsh. I have 18" low profile tires, 450/400 spring with the ohilins shock and a SOFTER than stock ride...but with much better feel and control. As Steve said, the difference is not in any way sutble. I don't track my car, I drive it on the street mostly with an occational autocross, I like it much much better now.

A buddy of mine at work bought a 350Z touring model and just loved the ride, the handling and feel....that is until I let him drive the modded 308, which rides, handles and feels considerably better. All I can say is that you get what you pay for.

The shocks that I went with have a very large diameter top to increase gas volume (improves shock responce went it's compressed, like hard braking to turn-in) and requires a touch (almost un-noticable) of grinding to install. Another owner went with the slightly more expensine units that have remote gas reservoirs, and they fit with no modifications, just bolt them in.

 

Yep, I bought my stuff through him. He also supports FCA... see the page at
www.fca-se.com/sponsors/tristram/

Mike

 

We're putting the Varishocks on my 308QV now... I don't think we're going to have to do that... I think they're going to clear just fine. We'll see on Monday!

 

They were in Dave's post but lost in the FChat crash. Here's a couple I had grabbed from that post:
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Hey, great pictures! Thanks!

Here's a dumb question: How do you join FCA? I'm a new Ferrari owner (2 weeks now) and would like to buy the shock/spring set at the discount price......

Greg

 

Hey Mike,
Let me know if you have to grind the a-arm...

Greg

 

Send them $135

 

note: new shocks et al are great on 308's but bear in mind that 308's STARVE for fuel and oil in hard corners. so before you guys spend tons on a 28 year old 308's suspension, be very careful what you wish for, you may get the red oil light all the time and end up having to dry sump the car just to drive it hard.

one thing that astounded me in all the 308's i have driven and ridden in, especially at the Roebling Road events, is how easy the cars, ( carb 308) would red light and have no oil pressure in corners and then would roll the other way in the next corner and starve for fuel from the floats moving around.

 

Well, that sucks......

 

No worries, it's a track only problem.

 

https://www.ferrariclubofamerica.org/pages/join.cfm

 

Mike,
Keep us posted, take pictures and write it up!! I can't wait to hear about it.

Birdman

 

Greg,

My 77 bottomed out, had the dreaded "clunking noise" over bumps and felt softer and less precise than what i wanted.

I replaced the trashed antiroll bar bushings first, then removed the konis to replace the bushings, (very tight, get someone with a big press to install them). I still had some clunking noise, AND the front konis were leaking big time.
I removed the a arms and installed the graphite impregnated poly bushings and did a bit of grinding on the a arm - no big deal, used a rotozip and a solid carbide bit. Incidently, this tool is an elxcellent way to grind off the welds that retain the a arm bushings in the arms.

For budgetary reasons, I went with the QA-1s from Summit and used their springs at 350 F and 300 R Stock is about 200. Much less bottoming out and a fairly flat ride. I have yet to do the antiroll bars, wheels, tires and brakes.

Some points worth considering:

The QA-1s ship with a 3/4 and 5/8 bushing. mounting Bolt size is 12mm and so requires a properly sized bushing, To keep things from rattling around or breaking, I made some copper sleeves.(Verell has made me a sample that I haven't had time to install). The other difficulty is with the shock bushing widths. They are roughly 1/2 inch narrower than the trock bushings. This can be fugged at the front with metal washers but at the rear lower mount, it is critical that you get the width right. Tightening the lower shock mount in the cast aluminum hub without a tight fit is just asking to crack one of the ears. This is a critical suspension bolt and needs to be properly tightened.

Any shock, except fixed spring mount style, (like the orriginal Koni) will require that the car be balanced with a set of scales. This summer, I will beg, borrow or steal a set of scales to get the car evened up. It is currently "guestimated".

The summitt collar adjusting wrench is junk, get one like MikeE has shown in his post.

Removing the front shocks requires the removal of the top a arm pivot bolt, so you are only two bolts from having the a arm on the ground.

AS long as you have the front top arms out, you might as well install SS bbrake lines, (Much easier with the arms out of the way.)

This would also be a good time to replace the rack gaiters or rack bushig, as long as you are in there.

CAUTION, when you pull the top arm, the hub and brake will want to flop around - DON'T let it do that or you will pinch and cut the lower ball joint boot.

Don't let this stuff scare you off. The mechanics are relatively straight foreward.

Look the car over very carefully first and order everything you think you might possibly need to do the job - and "as long as you are in there"...


hth,
chris

 

Chris,
Your post was quite informative. I'd like to find out where you bought all your parts--shocks/springs/bushings/brake lines, etc... I'd like to compare prices w/ a coil-over set I'm currently checking out. About $1300.

Yes, my car wallows in the curves, and sometimes bottoms out over bumps. Not good. It'd very comfortable on the hightway, however...

Please feel free to PM me with source/pricing info on your set-up..

Thanks again.....

Greg