Help! My poor 360 sounds AWFUL post-major...

Hey guys...I've been working on this problem for well over 2 months now, taken the car to two of the more respected repair shops in the NY area, and NOBODY has any idea what's wrong with my car. One shop doesn't think there's a problem (but you can listen for yourselves below), and the other said "wow...that's strange. Sounds awful. We have no idea why."

So I turn now to the Gods of Technical on fchat for some help. If anyone can help me solve this mystery, I'll be eternally grateful.

The short version: My Euro 360 has silenced straight pips and a Tubi exhaust. For a long time, it was one of the better sounding cars I've ever heard. Deep low Tubi rumble paired with the sonorous Ferrari wail. Perfect. The car went in for a 30k major. When it came out, it sounded (as it still does) worse than any other Ferrari I've ever heard. All the bass is gone, all the high-end wail is gone, and it's all midrange "bark" -- sounds like a Honda with a fart can. I'm trying to figure out why.

Here are the sound clips. The "before" clip is from another 360 (Hubert888) who has the same setup as I do -- Silenced Test Pipes + Tubi. It sounds nearly exactly like what my car used to sound like.

BEFORE:
http://www.noahlh.com/ferrari/hubi-tubi.mp3

AFTER:
http://www.noahlh.com/ferrari/awful.mp3

The longer version with more details & facts:

-- Before the major, my car had a slight exhaust manifold leak on the emission taps. This could be heard as a 'tick, tick, tick' sound. During the major, they pulled the left manifold, I brought it to a welding shop, and they welded the taps. They did not touch the manifold itself (under the heat shield). The ticking is now greatly reduced, but you can still hear it slightly in the "after" video.

-- During the major, a lot of work was done, leaking cam seals fixed, starter motor replaced, etc., so most of the major components were taken out of the car. Lots was taken apart and reassembled, and I'm assuming whatever happened happened during this process.

-- We thought it might be a bad Tubi, so we got a brand new one from Tubi under warranty. That was installed, and there was no improvement (the sound clip was taken tonight, with the new Tubi).

-- Several shops who have looked at the car insist there is NO exhaust leak. They've checked the whole exhaust line from the manifold back, and they claim no problems detected.

-- Mechanically, the car runs perfectly. In fact, after the major, it runs better than when I bought the car @ 12k miles. No power loss, no hesitation. Just bad sound.

If I recall any other details, I'll post them, but that's just about everything. Help me fchat...you're my only hope...!

--Noah

(A funny/sad side note: I got pulled over the other night by a New York State Tropper. I'm not joking: He told me that he pulled me over just to tell me that he heard my car, thought it sounded so painfully bad that I was giving Ferrari a bad name, and to get it fixed asap. We both laughed, but I cried inside.

(A second, sadder note: I was driving in another car behind my 360 today, and it pulled alongside a Neon with a Fart Can. A) They sounded almost exactly the same, and B) The Neon sounded better. Ugh.)

 

DAMN BOY, YOU CAR SOUNDS LIKE ****.

Take it back to the shop and have them REDO everything that they did? Might be an idea. This sounds so strange that it's hard to think that it is a mere problem with exhaust being blocked somewhere.

Has the timing been checked?

Oh, grats on having the 1st Ferrari to sound like a Honda

 

Wow..somthing is not right. How does the engine idle..is it smooth or does the car seem to shake more then normal. When cold..how does it start? When hot how does it start..It almost sounds like a crossed ignition wire or 2..but thats kinda hard to do with the 360 as it's coil on plug..and I really can't see then putting the wrong connector to the wrong coil...the harness won't allow it, unless it was forced over some how..

 

Interesting....

Tom: Yes, the car definitely vibrates more than it used to at idle. You can hear the flapping sound at the low end of the exhaust at idle, and that's accompanied by a vibration at the same frequency that can be felt in the steering wheel.

When cold, the car starts as it always has. When hot, I definitely have noticed that there's less of a big rev ("vrooom!") right off the bat -- it just kinda starts and goes right into a constant idle ("crankcrankcrank->hummmmmmm")

Clues?

--Noah

 

Another bit of info I forgot to add:

-- During testing, we tried disconnecting the air filters (i.e. unplugged the MAF connectors from the air filters), and the sound was nearly the same, but slightly improved (louder, but less 'violent' sounding).

I don't know what this means, but could it point to an intake issue?

 

I listened to the sound clip again..and you have a noticable exhaust leak..or what sounds like an exhaust leak. This in itself could be the problem. I would agian have that looked at. You should under no circumstances have a noise like that. I know that even the smallest leak on the 355's cause major havoc with the exhaust scavenging. It also causes falses readings for the 02 sensor which dectects a lean condition. When an O2 sees lean is tries to richen up the mixture..but the o2 is NOT at fault for this..the exhaust leak is. I would get it checked again..I think you will find this is your problem.

 

Tom -- just so I'm clear on what to hunt down...is the "tickticktick" sound the leak you're referring to? Or do you hear something else? Because that ticking is definitely the same manifold leak, and that was there (and actually worse) before the major change.

Thanks for the help, btw...

--Noah

 

The sound clip was taken with a high powered shotgun micraphone, you may be hearing valvetrain noise and not an exhaust tick.

 

These are all symptoms of a major exhaust or vacuum leak. My semi-educated guess: Either a vacuum line was left disconnected, reconnected improperly, or split during removal/reinstall when your car was being serviced... or you have an exhaust leak at one of the manifolds.

Either way I would go back to whoever you had service the car and have them go over their work step by step, because they obviously made some kind of mistake.

 

Sounds really flat, but you comment that it still goes ok......?

I'd say check the cam timing for a start. On a 360 it's not so hard. There is no crank TDC mark from factory, so you need to put No.1 on TDC and make your own mark. I do this by using a Dial gauge in the plug hole on to the piston, then when the crank is on TDC I put TWO tiny chisel marks on the crank pulley, right where it runs very close to each little jack shaft. I just mark the point of the flange overlap.

Then, to see the cam marks, you need to remove the rear end caps of each cam cover, at the rear of the engine. You may need to replace the gaskets, but maybe not if you're lucky.

Once the rear covers are off, look for a hand scribed line on the surface of the camshaft that refers to the moulded notch in the cam cap. It's on the vertical top surface and is hard to see, you may need a mirror and a torch.

These marks are the engine builders marks and are done after dialling the cams in. The build referance notchs are under the main cam covers at the front and need the covers removed, using the builders dialed marks is both quicker and more accurate here, so it's a win win.....

If the cam timing is ok, then we can move on.

 

I'm nowhere near the caliber of the other folks who've chimed in on this thread... but, it sounds like an exhaust leak to me. I had a hairline crack (I mean TINY) on one of my test pipes and the whole car's sound went to crap. Once the crack was properly welded back, the sound returned to normal.

You might try taking the car to a totally different repair shop -- go visit a Porsche or Lambo dealer. Without divulging too much information, ask them "hey, what do you think of this exhaust sound?". Sometimes it just takes a fresh set of eyes and ears to diagnose this stuff.

I agree -- the "after" sound clip is tragic.


-Daniel

 

Cam timing is a good start if the major repair included cam belts... You will not notice a major change in performance unless you have dynoed the car before and after. What about exhaust valves? I think his headers were repaired at least once and if he drove excessively with exhaust leak he could have damaged them.

Noah, Did you replace your headers since the last crack or did you repair them? If you replaced them you may have gotten the later version with pre-catalytic elements included in the headers and could also effect the sound.

 

I can't help any technically. I don't know squat about this stuff.

But, did you take it to a Ferrari Dealer for the service? If so, didn't that service come with a guarantee/warranty?

Have you played the first recording for anyone who's looked at your car?

If we can use it as a diagnostic comparison, so can they.

There's no denying the difference when you hear those two back to back.

Sad sound to hear. I hope it gets better soon.

DM

 

You can use soapy water (look for the bubbles) or a wooden broomhandle as a stethoscope for tracking an exhaust leak. Don't know how I'd feel about pouring soapy water on that beautiful engine if I were you, though.

 

You paid a lot of money for that service, it should not matter who did it, dealer or not. The shop that took your money needs to make it right. While everybody here knows it does not sound right this is an impossible venue to diagnose it. If it weren't, Tom, Phil and I could make a lot of money sitting at our keyboards. If your shop does not think there is a problem with your car they are incompetent, If they do not admit there is a problem they are dishonest. If they will not stand behind their work, find a good shop to fix it and take legal remedies to get financial satisfaction.

Algar has a very good reputation, not knowing anyone else in the area I would take it there.

 

da ec will help u get it fixed. we'll go to F of CNJ together after i get my car back from the 30k and engine recall issue.

 

can't think of much other than these:

- Cam variator problem - has the effect of eliminating howl of 360
- 'melted' exhaust manifold channel(s)
- semi collapsed baffling in a silenced cat-replacement pipe (happened before on a 360 capristo set I know of)
- exhaust leak (most likely)
- water in the works?

 

That sounds just like my 308 did when the catalyst went bad. I'm no expert, but you can usually see if it glows red at night.

 

I hate to say this, but it sounds similar to my 355 when I knocked a chunk out of an exhaust valve. I also heard the tic tic tic months before, and fixed that by doing the QV header fix. May have led to the valve problem, in addition to the valve guide going bad. Hope I'm wrong in your case. When the valve went, the whole exhaust tone changed and not for the better.

 

One thing that I and I'm sure the other techs on the site will agree is..alway check the basics first. You must find the source of that ticking noise and repaire it..then go form there. Think of a car like a house. You can build the most beauitful house in the world..but if the foundation is cracked then all the fancy furniture in the world is not going to fix it.

 

Wow! How'd that happen? Was your timing/belt off?

A compression leak down test would diagnose this problem. I hope you get it sorted out. If it's just a valve guide that's gone bad you can pull an replace them with the head still on the engine. http://www.toyotool.com/valvemaster.htm If you bring the cylinder you're working on to TDC and fill the chamber with compressed air (as you would for a leak down test) the valve wont drop into the cylinder and you can do the procedure. You need a lot of air pressure though.

My guess would be the cam belt might be installed one tooth off or cam belts not aligned as posted above. If that were the case you could have a valve opening or closing late or early when it shouldn’t be. That would effect the airflow and sound.

 

You should research what a valve guide is. That tool won't do it, and it cannot be done with the head in place.

 

You guys are absolutely awesome. I knew there was a reason I love fchat.

Ok, so, update:

Took the car into a 3rd dealership today, and they also suggested checking the cam timing, and did so. Turns out we're looking at left side 647, right side 667, where I understand normal to be 657 (+/- 2). So that's WAY off.

Car's going back to the shop that did the major tomorrow morning.

More updates to come.....

--Noah

 

Also just so you know, that number does not take into account any problem that may exist in the intake cam timing.

 

Rifledriver you are the man.