P4 that was raced by Chris Amon in Australia (?)

PSk · Jan 3, 2005

I was given a book titled Legends of Speed - Brabham to Webber, Beechy to Brock by Bill Woods and it mentions that Chris Amon bought a P4 out to Australia one season and was comprehensively beaten by local cars D) in the late 60's.

While this book has a few minor errors, I did not realise that a P4 ever made it this far south. Does anybody have any photos, stories of this trip and which P4 it was, etc.? Is this true?

Pete

Napolis · Jan 3, 2005

Was this Paul Hawkin's car 0854 later aquired by David along with spares? If so I believe it was a 412P.
Best

P4Replica · Jan 3, 2005

Napolis said:

Was this Paul Hawkin's car 0854 later aquired by David along with spares? If so I believe it was a 412P.
Click to expand...

I think you'll find that it was 330P4 #0858, then converted to 350 Can-Am specification, Jim. It was then owned by David McKay's Scuderia Veloce. After a couple of unsuccessful races, he sold it to Paul Hawkins who raced it in South Africa in the Team Gunston colours. When Paul Hawkins was killed at Oulton Park in '69, Piper bought the car from Hawkin's widow, then sold it on, keeping the factory spares package, which he subsequently used to build up #0900. See: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0858.330P4.htm

P4Replica · Sep 7, 2017

PSk said:

Does anybody have any photos, stories of this trip and which P4 it was, etc.?
Click to expand...

Pete. There was a 4-page article in an 'Italian special' issue of Australian Sports Driver, from 1994. It majors on the 250LM, but there is a page or so on the 350 Can-Am. The article was written by McKay himself. I have it as a pdf. file (kindly sent me by an ex-employee of Scuderia Veloce). If you'd like me to forward it you only have to ask
Here's one of the photos from the article:
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P4Replica · Jan 3, 2005

Pete.
I also dug this one out (from my 'P4 bibliography'):
Sports Car World (Australian Quarterly). July / Sept. 1982 Pages 36-43
The Potent P4 A Ferrari fierce and fine. Yet another article by Doug Nye, including development; racing history and results by chassis number. Good selection of colour and B&W photos, including a unique two page colour spread shot of chassis #0858 in 350 Can-Am form, whilst in the hands of Australian Scuderia Veloce at Surfers Paradise, in 1968.
Not surprisingly, some duplication in the text from other magazine articles. Editor of SCW was Mike McCarthy (also of C&SC)

P4Replica · Sep 7, 2017

PSk said:

Does anybody have any photos, stories of this trip and which P4 it was, etc.?
Click to expand...

Pete. If you search this site, you'll find a few colour and B&W photos of Amon driving #0858 at Longford in '68. Here's a few of them (copyright 'Old Race Photos'):
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P4Replica · Sep 7, 2017

(Again, obviously copyright 'Old Race Photos'):
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PSk · Jan 3, 2005

Thanks! ... PM sent.

That photo of it all crossed up is beaut!

Interestingly it got blown away by a Frank Matich car called the SR4 (I think) that Frank designed and built. Frank had plans to take this car to the US for the Can Am series but his entry was refused at the last minute (a pity and cowardly by the series IMO ... ?).

This car had just about every track record at the time and was pissing all over McLaren M6's, etc. in Australia so there is no disgrace for the P4 being beaten convincingly by this car and driver.

Pete

Napolis · Jan 3, 2005

Quite Right Paul!

C'one · Jan 4, 2005

Any pictures of this SR4?it sound's very interesting.
Great photos Paul,happy new year! btw...and everyone else

400iGuy · Jan 4, 2005

C'one said:

Any pictures of this SR4?it sound's very interesting.
Click to expand...

Photos of Frank Matich's SR4 can be found @
http://www.hsrca.org.au/vol10_n1.pdf pages 1 and 13 in a article in the H.S.R.C.A pub THE OILY RAG that compares the SR4 to the McLaren M8B.

www.hsrca.org.au/vol10_n2.pdf contains continuation of the comparison with a table of specifications for both the SR4 and M8B.

400iGuy

PSk · Jan 4, 2005

http://www.hsrca.org.au/vol10_n1.pdf said:

Acomparison test generally contains a head to head shootout, some hard performance data and a journalist’s opinion. Not perfect, but we have come to accept this approach as reasonably fair - in road cars at least. Racecars present a slightly different set of parameters. Obviously ride comfort, noise, looks and cost don’t count for much and the only conclusion that matters is race results. Technical analysis is the great pastime of the racing aficionado. Power to weight ratios, aerodynamics and suspension layouts will soon enter any conversation. Driver feel is translated into terms which have no relevance to road cars and proof is always lap times. Not 0-100 or standing quarter times, for a racecar must possess much more, and we have all experienced the total inadequacy of any road car when asked to perform on the track. PSk: Hence my attitude to the 1/4 mile To compare racecars however is not quite so easy, and the task I have set myself may well be impossible - because these cars never met in mortal combat. What better way to create heated debate than to attempt to prove the purely hypothetical? These two great cars will always be glorified for possessing everything one would want, from looks to sound, from technical specification to track performance. Winners!

The McLaren M8 series covered perhaps the greatest period of revolutionary change in racecar technology and design. Aerodynamics and tyre grip evolved rapidly from around 1967 to 1972 and the M8 perhaps best demonstrates how much extra gain could be made to the same basic car by applying this new knowledge. The M8B of 1969 was the most successful of all Can-Am cars winning all eleven rounds. It was alsoDenny Hulme’s favourite car.

Fortunately for us, Frank Matich developed the SR4 at precisely the same time, and its aerodynamic development parallels the M8A and M8B in that it started life employing the new style of slab sided angular body, wide tyres and soon added a tall hub-mounted rear wing. The car’s record is also remarkably similar - total domination of our domestic scene.

So the protagonists are chosen – two champions from the same era destined never to meet BUT designed for the same specific purpose. To the casual observer these cars are obviously very similar, drafted from the same rule book - almost. Group 7 sports (two seat) racecars were pretty much unencumbered by rules and the Australian requirements allowed the Matich to be built with a Can-Am assault as the ultimate goal, although it was limited to a 5-litre engine, and had to carry a spare wheel. Surprisingly the two cars share almost no componentry, dimensionally very alike but developed in isolation. Both cars share another important feature, which may have been the catalyst for their amazing but separate success stories – the driver/engineer. Even the uninitiated will have noted that the cars bare the driver’s names.

Bruce McLaren was always building a better mousetrap. A development driver of rare, perhaps unequalled, ability, he actually enjoyed testing, and at the time of his death was intending to race less and test more. His last test session, at Goodwood in the new M8D, was in a way a fitting finale. McLaren was a racecar constructor and every car that bore his name carried something of his persona. To lose a life in another meaningless test session would be an insult to the memory of most racers but not McLaren. That the name exists in F1 in the year 2000 is fitting.

Frank Matich stands high on anyone’s list of Australian drivers and, like McLaren, it was his engineering and development ability that singled him out. There is no doubt that at times there was collusion of thought between the two men. Matich would have purchased the new McLaren big banger in 1966 except for cost and the wish to freely develop a car and not be dependent upon factory improvements or reliant on factory parts availability - especially from the other side of the planet. Matich reluctantly became a constructor but in the most minimalist fashion. Attempts to sell his product were largely unsuccessful. Only two of his sportscars, an SR3 and the SR4B, ever found a home when new (the SR3 to the U.S.A.) and the other two were passed onto customers only when he had built himself an improved version. There was only one big-engined SR4 and one smaller version, the SR4B or SR5, which was also raced quite extensively.

Bruce McLaren had built several successful Group 7 cars prior to the fabulous M8B. His M6B customer car became the most popular of all Can-Am cars after his own team M6A had clinched the 1967 series. The M8A differed in improving the monocoque in lightness and stiffness by having only two steel bulkheads and making the new lightweight alloy engine a stressed member. This setup was tested on the M6A. The engine was now out to 7 litres in 1968 and stroked a little more in 1969, giving a lazy 680 horsepower at 6,800 revs but supposedly safe to 8,000 r.p.m. A magneto cutout was set at 7,600 but was not really required as the car was so far ahead of the field that overstressing the engine became totally unnecessary. In this configuration the McLaren became the first racecar to achieve 1,000 horsepower per ton. Designed around the new Goodyear low profile tyres, the car took on a more lowline and functional look. The gearbox was now a four speed unit thanks to rolling starts which gave a 12lb weight saving. Front wheel arches were cut back not so much for aerodynamic reasons as one would suppose, but for ease of repair and minimising tub damage in the case of an accident. This type of practical thinking was a hallmark of all McLaren designs. Team McLaren cars were effectively prototypes for next season’s customer cars.M8Bs were upgraded M8As with around 80 design changes, most notable the hub mounted rear wing. The McLaren team had in fact been experimenting with wings since1965!!!

Their first open wheeler was the M2A and although it never raced it was the test vehicle for various Firestone tyres prior to them entering F1 and used the first rear wing. At Zandvoort McLaren gained an incredible three seconds a lap but then destroyed all evidence of the wing which he hoped to use as his secret weapon in the new three litre formula of 1966. Unfortunately he found no suitable engine that season, having rejected the Oldsmobile F85 that had become the basis for the Repco-Brabham, and found the Indianapolis based Ford engine heavy and hopelessly unreliable. The wing was shelved until he copied the Chaparral style flipper wing in 1966 on his M1B sportscar. He hated it and abandoned the idea again after just one race. “We drew the wrong conclusions,” said Teddy Mayer many years later. In 1967 McLaren tried again on the M6A at Goodwood. “Take that thing off. It understeers everywhere”, said McLaren. “We just thought it was a crazy idea,” said Hulme, “that CAN’T work”. The hub mounted wing gave the new M8B the greatest single performance improvement since Mclaren first used the iron block Chev combined with the new generation wide tyres. So much so that two years later the M8F was still struggling to match the M8B’s times. Teddy Mayer still thinks that fitting a wing directly to the suspension is superior to chassis mounted or body molded wings. “You don’t get pitch change from added aerodynamics. It makes the car easier to balance”. He felt that banning the hub-mounted wing was banning the wrong thing. “They should have been banning bad engineering.” McLaren cars never suffered from a wing failure, even Mclaren’s own death was caused by a pin shaking loose causing the rear bodywork to break away, and not by a failure of the wing itself.

Frank Matich was reigning Australian sportscar champion and had a taste of Can-Am racing with his SR3R in 1967. Despite a pretty dismal time of it, he saw enough to set his sights on an all-out assault in 1968 with a new, more powerful, wider tyred and more aerodynamic version called the SR4. He reasoned that a genuine race engined car that was light and well balanced, with the latest tyres, would stand a good chance against competition that was often underfunded and reliant on last years design from the house of McLaren. He also felt that apart from three or four front runners, the driving standard left much to be desired and was prepared to back his skill to make up any other deficits. He was probably right! On this premise, Matich designed arguably the finest racing car this country has ever produced. He had successfully talked Repco into enlarging the F1 quad-cam engine to 5 litres, the Australian capacity limit, then penned a car to clothe it and the latest ultra wide Firestone tyres, which he felt had the march on Goodyear at that time. The result was unfortunately delayed by various factors including the terrible trouble Repco were having with reliability and consequent availability of the quad-cam engines. They were flat out preparing 2.5 litre engines for that year’s Tasman series as well. The body was also delayed when there was a problem completing the original in aluminium before taking a fibreglass mould. J.W.F. Fibreglass took over and very quickly solved the problems and completed the job. Collaboration with Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation allowed a high proportion of parts to be cast in magnesium including hub carriers, wheels, steering box, and engine mounts. Special gearbox side plates and cover plates were also cast for the ZF 25 in order to strengthen it to take the greater power of the 5 litre engine. In the end this proved a waste of effort as the car ultimately ran the Hewland LG 500.

Intended for the 1968 series it was soon obvious that any real challenge would have to wait until 1969. Amongst the reasons for never making it to the American tracks was the lengthened Can- Am series which now overlapped the Tasman series and Matich intended a serious assault here as well. To compete in eleven rounds would have been a monumental task although with Rothmans backing and some good results even a few rounds were still a possibility. A further blow to the plans was the withdrawal of appearance money and the international competition dropped off accordingly, although this surely would have improved Matich’s prospects of success. Finally there was the threat, never enforced as it turned out, to ban any engine not based on a stock block. It is unlikely that this would have affected his entry as the Repco WAS based on a stock block and there is ample evidence of other more exotic engines than his quad-cam, notably the Indy based Ford overhead cam engine, the Ferrari V12 and the Porsche flat six and later flat twelve. The rules remained unchanged throughout the Can-Am i.e. engines over 2.5 litres, no turbines. Matich has stated that this threat was brought about by fear in the Mclaren camp about the potential of the SR4 having seen it smash outright records and prove to be quicker than 2.5 litre Tasman cars. It should be noted here that the McLarens were faster than 3 litre F1 cars. It is true however that it was usually Teddy Mayer who appealed against any other competitors perceived advantages, such as the Chaparral sucker car and later the turbo Porsches, so it’s quite probable that he sought to ban genuine race engines such as Ferrari and Porsche.

The SR4 weighed in about 50 lbs. Lighter than the SR3R with the complete frame including roll bar, engine mounts, pedal brackets, brake lines, rivets and paint weighing an impressive 81 lbs. It was anticipated that the body alone would account for all aerodynamic requirements, as did the McLaren M8A of that year. Of course front spoiler and various front body fences soon appeared, upsetting the original clean lines and elegant look. The bulge for the forward angled radiator also gained an alloy lip to help evacuate air by creating a lowpressure area, much like the McLaren, while the rear spoiler was a rather unsophisticated giant Gurney flap similar to virtually every car in the Can-Am that year. The all up weight was about 70 lbs lighter than the McLaren, which would have partially compensated for the power and torque disadvantage. The very short wheelbase of just 90”, while an advantage on Australia’s tight circuits, could well have created a high speed oversteer problem on the very fast American tracks. Initially the SR4 was not legal to Australian Appendix C regulations, however when the rush to prepare for the Can-Am challenge faded this was easily overcome. A 1969 photograph at Bathurst clearly shows the mandatory spare wheel carried over the gearbox, which could have done nothing good for the weight distribution and the centre of gravity.

The car’s debut, eagerly awaited after a seven-month gestation period, was at Warwick Farm for the Hordern Trophy on the first of December 1968. Although two seconds a lap slower than his record in the SR3R, Matich duly won and fulfilled the first part of the car’s destiny. As early as February 1969 all Can-Am plans had been shelved. Despite the euphoria of the Australian press and the sensational local results, the Matich was already doomed to international obscurity. On the home front the car’s potential was fully realised as Matich peeled off an unprecedented series of wins and outright lap records. These feats became a matter of course and to “do a Matich” became a common phrase in Australian racing - to totally dominate, win and break all records with apparent ease. No other car ever dominated the scene like the Matich SR4, allowing people to believe that the car could beat even the best international competition. Unfortunately there were grumblings that the class was being compromised by lack of real racing and that Matich was killing the category. The same criticism was leveled at the “Bruce and Denny show.”

It was neither McLaren’s or Matich’s fault that they created invincible machines, but in Matich’s case he was so far ahead that he had become a field of one; never an acceptable situation in motor racing. The car’s first loss was at the hands of a broken throttle spring allowing Bevan Gibson in the Elfin 400 Repco to claim victory - his fifth in a row. The young pretender to the Matich throne lost his life two months later at Bathurst at the Easter meeting where Matich had debuted the tallest wing imaginable. Like McLaren he too had the initial experience of terminal understeer. Having completed the wing (built by John Hancock) he insisted on rushing out to Oran Park for testing. His first attempt at turning left at the end of the straight saw him plough straight on as rear grip greatly exceeded front grip. No doubt this led to a rethink on front spoilers and spring rates. Throughout the season Matich trialled various combinations of tall wing, no wing, additional front spoiler and along the way set a standard of preparation and results that no-one came close to matching. The F.I.A. ban on hub mounted wings came into force on May 17, 1969 after several weeks of debate and a spate of serious crashes. While not yet enforced in Australia, Matich removed the wing anyway, for safety reasons and to avoid controversy, and then set the outright Warwick Farm record on May 4th. He also collected outright records at Surfers Paradise, Calder, Sandown Park and Catalina that year with a routine ease, which downgraded the brilliance of his effort. To design, build and drive to such total domination deserved better than hollow victories.

The arrival of Bob Jane’s Repco powered Mclaren M6B driven by John Harvey promised to reinvigorate the sportscar class when Harvey qualified only one second slower than the Matich at Calder. Both cars retired in the first race but a good scrap ensued in the trophy race until the McLaren challenge quickly faded, along with the brakes, as the status quo was restored when the long reigning king “did a Matich.” The final round of the 1969 Australian Sports Car Championship was at Sandown on November 9 and, while the SR4 was victorious by seven seconds from Harvey, the Mclaren did achieve equal fastest lap - another outright record of course. A week later the Mclaren gave further warnings of its abilities by smashing the Symmonds Plains record by two seconds, although Matich wasn’t there. Nor did he race, courtesy of a sprained wrist, when Niel Allen debuted the Elfin ME5 Chev at The Farm on December 7. In fact this great car would soon be retired as Matich put his efforts into the new F5000 Tasman series. Having debuted a McLaren M10A at The Farm in September he broke the existing outright record, his own, and went on to win the Australian Grand Prix in the M10B in 1970. It is interesting to note that at last Matich was driving the car he had always aimed to beat and emulate.

In fact he did development work on the M10A at Bruce McLaren’s request and the resultant M10B dominated F5000 around the world until Lola asserted its authority. Not satisfied with this, Matich then built the A50 F5000 in which he won another Australian Grand Prix in 1971, took pole in 1972 and the A53 carried John Goss to another A.G.P. win in 1976. Commitments to the fledgling F5000 category meant missing the opening round of the 1970 Australian Sports Car Championship, a title Matich had won FIVE times! The second round was to be the SR4’s swansong, fittingly at Warwick Farm, but unusual in that it was a rare loss. A fuel line disconnection caused Matich to pit after one lap and when he resumed he was a lap and eleven seconds behind the new and very purposeful looking Elfin ME5 being driven by the more than competent Neil Allen. Matich was unable even to unlap himself although the two cars powered around the circuit within a few seconds of each other for the entire remaining twenty-one laps. Fastest lap was taken by Matich at exactly one second quicker than Allen, indicating that the gap in performance had closed significantly between Matich and “the rest”. Whether Matich could have stayed ahead of the Elfin and Jane’s McLaren in future tussles is purely academic.(The McLaren did not break the SR4’s records at Surfers, the Farm or Catalina, but the Elfin did eclipse the Sandown record.) It was over for this car and Matich had already moved onto Australia’s premier category with barely a hint of regret. Sportscars were clearly his favourite form of racing as he often indicated in later years, but sentiment doesn’t count for a champion and the SR4 was unceremoniously consigned to museum obscurity.
Click to expand...

Pete
ps: Photo of the SR4 from the same article:

C'one · Jan 5, 2005

Yes it is interesting ,thank's gents,very kind of you

P4Replica · Jan 5, 2005

In post #4 of this thread, I wrote:

P4Replica said:

Pete. There was a 4-page article in an 'Italian special' issue of Australian Sports Driver, from 1994. It majors on the 250LM, but there is a page or so on the 350 Can-Am. The article was written by McKay himself. I have it as a pdf. file (kindly sent me by an ex-employee of Scuderia Veloce). If you'd like me to forward it you only have to ask
Click to expand...

Pete asked. I have tried to send it to him a few times now and failed on each occasion.

The .pdf file is (allegedly) just under 8.5MB. Pete's incoming email file size limit is 10.0MB, but his ISP keeps 'bouncing' it. I only have Adobe Reader 6.0, (a freebee download) which doesn't appear to have any editing capabilities. Can anyone help by editing this file (say by splitting it into two separate files of two pages each), and either emailing it back to me, or forwarding it on to Pete ? Any help appreciated

davidgoerndt · Jan 5, 2005

P4Replica said:

In post #4 of this thread, I wroteete asked. I have tried to send it to him a few times now and failed on each occasion.

The .pdf file is (allegedly) just under 8.5MB. Pete's incoming email file size limit is 10.0MB, but his ISP keeps 'bouncing' it. I only have Adobe Reader 6.0, (a freebee download) which doesn't appear to have any editing capabilities. Can anyone help by editing this file (say by splitting it into two separate files of two pages each), and either emailing it back to me, or forwarding it on to Pete ? Any help appreciated
Click to expand...

I sent you a PM regarding the pdf file. I may be able to edit it with Acrobat.

David Goerndt

PSk · Jan 5, 2005

Thanks guys

Appreciated.
Pete

normbeechey · Oct 3, 2005

I know this is an old thread , but some of you may be interested in the color photos of the Ferrari P4 (and McLaren M6B) on my amateur web site. There are some half way down this page:
http://members.tripod.com/motorsportarchive2/page_2.htm

You may have to manually 'cut' and 'paste' the above web address into your Internet web browser address bar.

There is a profile on David McKay (who owned the P4) here: http://members.tripod.com/motorsportarchive2/david_mckay.htm

There are also pics of the Matich SR4 on this page:http://members.tripod.com/motorsportarchive1/1960s_page_3.htm

regards,
Chris Meaden
www.MotorsportArchive.com

yasmin · Sep 7, 2017

I'm not sure if this is the same matich SR4 but it was at a meet last weekend here in Victoria.
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normbeechey · Oct 7, 2005

Yes, that is the same Matich . The car was retired from racing after Matich stopped racing it, so it is very original (apart from the engine, I think).

By the way , the car never ran with that low mounted rear wing, as far as I know . It ran with the high mounted wing for a race meeting or two but mostly ran wingless .

Also the colour is much lighter than I remember it to be .

Thanks for posting the pic.

Chris.
www.MotorsportArchive.com

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P4 that was raced by Chris Amon in Australia (?)

PSk F1 World Champ

Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ Honorary Owner

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P4 that was raced by Chris Amon in Australia (?)

PSk F1 World Champ

Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ Honorary Owner

P4Replica Formula 3

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PSk F1 World Champ

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