How slippery is the 308? | FerrariChat
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How slippery is the 308?

Discussion in '308/328' started by LopeAlong, Dec 30, 2004.

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  1. LopeAlong

    LopeAlong Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2004
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    Jim
    #1 LopeAlong, Dec 30, 2004
    Does anyone have any old (or new) wind tunnel numbers on the 308 body style? I am in the midst of an argument with a co-worker about the aerodynamics of the car and I can not find squat about it! Help me annialate this Audi driving pig!
    Jim
     
  2. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

    Nov 17, 2003
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    #2 greg328, Dec 30, 2004
    Don't have any numbers, but mine looks pretty slippery! Maybe the underside hurts the overall Cg.....


    Greg
     
  3. SMS

    SMS F1 Veteran

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    #3 SMS, Dec 30, 2004
    From memory, issue #1 of Forza has this in their 308 special issue. Maybe someone has it handy.
     
  4. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    Nov 5, 2003
    11,560
    san diego/charlotte
    #4 ferraripete, Dec 30, 2004
    i would doubt the wind tunnel would be very kind...seems to be lots of dead air areas.

    having said that, who cares! to look that good...who cares!!!!
     
  5. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
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    #5 hardtop, Dec 30, 2004
    It's slippery enough that a little over 200hp will propel it's 3200lb heft to 140+.

    Dave
     
  6. fedev

    fedev Rookie

    Nov 10, 2003
    23
    #6 fedev, Dec 31, 2004
    cx should be 0.36/037 (almost any current sedan is below 0.3), possibly better for i/qv (better underbody air flow due to panels closing it up to the engine..), but frontal area is very small (dont'have the numbers handy), so total aeronynamic drag should be competitive.
     
  7. MRFOTOS

    MRFOTOS Karting

    May 26, 2003
    232
    Maui, Hi
    #7 MRFOTOS, Dec 31, 2004
    some numbers I found..but not a 308 yet.....

    Ferrari 550 and 575M Maranello.....

    The first production front-engined two-seat Ferrari since the Daytona, the 550 ... With
    extensive work in the wind-tunnel a drag coefficient of 0.33 was achieved


    Challenge Stradale....
    after all the
    modifications and adjustments to set up the car has a drag coefficient of 0.335 same as the 360 Modena

    Ferrari and Rear Wing ..trivia...

    In the early 60's, Ferrari's engineers discovered that by adding an air foil ( we simply call "Wing" ) to the rear end, lift can be dramatically reduce or even generates net downforce. At the same time, drag is only slightly increased.


    The first wing car is Ferrari 246SP endurance racing car in 1962. Just one year later, 250GTO road car incorporated a small duck tail wing, a first for road car of course. However, wing did not get popular until Porsche launched its 911 RS 2.7 in 1972, whose big duck tail reduced lift by 75% at high speed. Just one year later, 911 RS 3.0 used a "Whale tail" wing which completely eliminated lift. It became a trademark for the later 911s.


    Cd data..

    Cd World Records

    Cd, Model, Remark
    0.137 Ford Probe V (1986) Concept car
    0.19 GM EV1 (1996) Electric car
    0.26 Opel Calibra (1989) 2.0i base model
    0.27 Mercedes E230 (1996) --
    0.27 VW Passat (1997) --
    0.27 Lexus LS400 (1997) --
    0.27 BMW 318i (1998) --

    verrrrrrrrry interesting
     
  8. LopeAlong

    LopeAlong Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2004
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    #8 LopeAlong, Jan 1, 2005
    Thanks guys! I checked Forza #1 and all they said was the factory did extesive wind tunnel testing. I was hoping it was lower than .3 and indeed I was talking about the qv version with the panels. I would think it should be pretty darn good - hence my argument with the Audi TT owner (like he has room to talk!). I'll keep looking and post if I find something.
    Jim
     
  9. Morrie

    Morrie Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
    207
    Sarasota/Asheville
    #9 Morrie, Jan 2, 2005
    This is entirely unscientific, but may offer some help. My 308 GTS is very quiet in the cockpit at any speed. This is a good indication of smooth airflow.
     
  10. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    #10 don_xvi, Jan 2, 2005
    I wouldn't expect the 308 to be below 0.3. That's pretty slippery, and I wouldn't think that features like the vertical rear window would fit in with that. The flat undertray is nice, and it sounds like you guys are saying the QV has a bigger undertray? But there's so much in the details of this stuff, a 4th gen Camaro looks a lot slipperier than a 308 (undertray excluded), but it was a 0.34 car. Don't people also complain of lift at speed on their 308s? I haven't gotten mine real fast, but high speed lift will be an indication of drag, as well.

    If the debate is whether the 308 or the TT was slipperier, I'd have to go with the TT. It's got a good basic shape to keep laminar flow and keep the air attached over the rear (oops, until they had to add that wing!) IMHO.

    I've just dug around and found that the TT is 0.32.
     
  11. LopeAlong

    LopeAlong Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2004
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    #11 LopeAlong, Jan 3, 2005
    Heh! Heh! yeah Don the TT would produce laminar flow - but it's just a Beetle for gosh sakes! And that's a BIG hump for the air to go around! Har! You can imagine the "discussions" we have! Thanks guys!
    Jim

    Forgot, the qv also has the spoiler to smooth out the airflow behind the rear window and provide better motor ventilation.
     
  12. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    #12 atheyg, Jan 3, 2005
    My 512BB has a drag of .38, the front end where the bumper meets the hood is much lower than my 328 which is similar to the 308, the same with the spoiler, its inches off the ground and bottoms out much easier than my 328, the Boxer was designed in '71 308 in '75 so I would say the 308 is higher or at best the same.

    I just bought a whole series of Road & Track magazines from 1978, one issue has the 308 on the cover for a road test in it, if this question has not been answered by the time I get them I'll post the answer then
     
  13. senna21

    senna21 F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2004
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    #13 senna21, Jan 3, 2005
  14. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    #14 atheyg, Jan 3, 2005

    This was for the 3 litre record, the Boxer is 5 litres so it doesn't apply to it, clearly he didn't chose to heavily modify a 308 over the 512 for a 161 mph run which a Boxer will easily do in stock form though this record would not apply as I said since it's 4.4 litres for the 365 or 5 litres for the 512 and I doubt he has ever had a 512 at this disposal at all thru the years for something like this. He has modified many customers Boxers though.

    Concerning the drag coefficient between a Boxer and 308 the Boxer is about 7" wider but like I said its much lower from the hood to the ground, but both have a similar shape, the drag stats are very similar I am sure.
     
  15. PhilB

    PhilB Formula 3
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    Feb 17, 2004
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    #15 PhilB, Jan 3, 2005
    A TT is a Beetle - good one!

    When looking for my car years back, my wife asked me not to buy anything that looked like a jellybean (911, TT, and so many others), as "the roads are filled with jellybeans" she said.

    My choice was between the 308 and 512, two totally different cars but sharing a strong resemblance. I went with the 308 - my love from my teenage days.

    Anyway,
    Phil
     
  16. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    #16 Auraraptor, Jan 3, 2005
    3x8 is not very slippery. The wipers alone stick out. Then you have the trim peices every which-where (like the one that covers the fuel cap) that are not flesh with the body.
     
  17. Zertec

    Zertec Formula 3

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    #17 Zertec, Jan 3, 2005
    Interesting turn of phase.
     
  18. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    #18 Auraraptor, Jan 3, 2005
    Hehe. Flush.
     
  19. Zertec

    Zertec Formula 3

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    #19 Zertec, Jan 3, 2005
    ...and I even spelt "phrase" wrong...DOH
     
  20. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    #20 Auraraptor, Jan 3, 2005
    Taste of your own medicine! :D
     
  21. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    #21 Smiles, Jan 4, 2005
    You got the right guy!

    Check out:
    http://www.bobnorwood.com/300%20mph%C2%A0%20The%20Aerodynamics%20of%20Drag%20and%20Power.htm

    For his 288-308 GTO conversion, Bob Norwood estimated that the Cd (after modifications) was 0.33 and that the frontal area was 20.5 square feet.

    --Matt
     
  22. senna21

    senna21 F1 Rookie

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    #22 senna21, Jan 4, 2005
    True the link is for the 3 liter record. But, when he went for the 5 liter he still chose the 308 profile. Albeit in 288 trim with the exception of the side view mirrors:
    http://www.bobnorwood.com/5-liter%20288%20Power.htm

    He then decided to go with the same platform for the 8.2 liter record.
    http://www.bobnorwood.com/Terminal%20Velocity %20Norwood%208_2-Liter%20Power%20on%20the%20Salt.htm
     
  23. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    #23 atheyg, Jan 4, 2005

    He used a American V8 engine in that car because it was cheap and would fit his test mule 308GTBwhich was from a wrecker, has nothing to do with preferring the 308 platform as a performance advantage over the Boxer which would have doubled the cost for the car easily, the next record was the same situation-economics of cost, those cars are not even Ferraris anymore they are more Panteras.

    It would have been much easier to put this Can AM engine into a Boxer instead of cutting a 308 to pieces and using a ZF German trans axle, if he could have found one wrecked and cheap like the 308, not to mention the Boxer has a much stronger frame, quad rear shock set up for more stability at speed and could handle the added weight of the motor easier and better better brakes as they are larger and 4 piston calipers, it would have required much less fabrication and mods.
     
  24. GrahamS

    GrahamS F1 Veteran
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    #24 GrahamS, Jan 4, 2005
  25. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
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    Aug 3, 2002
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    #25 Mike C, Jan 4, 2005
    I *have* gotten mine up a hair over 150mph, and I can tell you that the faster it goes, the tighter it seems to get sucked down to the ground, and there is no noticeable lift and the steering stays nice and tight. Of course, that's on my 308QV that also has the long euro front spoiler, which probably helps keep the nose down at that kind of speed.

    At 150 mph, the car wasn't even breathing heavy, but I was so I had to slow down!!!
     
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