Alright, a paranoid newbie here again. First of all, thanks to everyone's inputs on previous questions - always fun to read and learn... Back to my 10,000 mile testarossa, owned for 1 month now. Passed PPI at LFSC, leakdown 4-10%, barely driven for several years (1000 miles or so in last 5 years). 30k mile service 1 year ago, documented. I drove the car below 4000 rpm for 200 miles or so, figuring if something bad was going to happen, I rather it did so at low rpm. No problems...even had the names of 2 tow truck companies in my pocket ( : ) ). Brakes originally felt weak - much better now - assume pads had to seat. Then drove 100 miles or so using the full rev-band. Drove great - no problems. The more I used it, the better it got. Always warmed it up for 20 minutes first...oil temp moved to 2nd tick mark. Finally checked the oil (hot), its at the Low Marking. No surprise, it was on the low end during the PPI (Low Middle). Some small drops of oil on the ground now - no surprise again, figured some of these old gaskets may leak... Added 1 1/4 quarts of Castrol Syntec (Fully Synthetic), got the oil level just above the middle... Following day I start it up, and get my usual small puff of smoke - last 1-2 seconds. Then all clear. Then, about 1 minute later I get a LOT more bluish/white smoke. Now its still fairly cold outside (30-40 degrees), but this is a LOT more smoke than any of my other cars have put out. I figure its condensation. I wouldn't want to be in a closed garage with this stuff... Next couple of days gets up to 45 degrees...still smokes 1 minute after startup, for a minute or so. I don't think it ever did this before!!! I get paranoid and figure maybe I overfilled it...nope. Drive 100-200 more miles .Oil level now at the low end again. Add 2 quarts of NONSYNTHETIC, goes to full level. No change in the afterstart up smoke. Doesn't smoke on acceleration. Doesn't smoke on decellaration. Runs great. Gearbox is finally getting smooth... So what happened? 1) Overfill? Unlikely - level seems ok, though the smoke definitely correlates with adding oil. 2) Was it the synthetic oil? Why would one quart matter so much (Its what I had laying around). Again, temporally the adding of oil correllates with the smoke. 3) Did the ferrari gods frown down on me (Maybe it was sacriledge talking about ferrari costs? ( ). Could a valve guide have gone all of a sudden? Could a ring have broke? If it were a ring, I would assume it would smoke all of the time. If its a valve guide, why wear out all of a sudden? 4) Is this just condensation? I mean, how much water vapor can possibly collect in the exhaust???!!!! Anyone else from a cold climate notice this? Maybe this is normal??? My BMW also puts out some smoke at these temps, but its a helluva lot less! Any Canadians want to chime in? I would assume that with a recent leakdown completely shot rings might be excluded? The cylinders with close to 10% leakdown were #1 #2, others were 4-6% or so. This temporary flash of smoke comes from both exhaust sides, if this helps...Both exhausts are sooty - when wiped with a napkin...The car was barely ever driven (definitely garage queen, and I really think these numbers would be better hot or after driving, but haven't had a chance to recheck....) Open to thoughts. Do I just patiently wait and pray. Do I start cocking the proverbial handgun and placing it to my forehead? Oh well, as my wife says, its just a car...fix it... Any thoughts appreciated for the paranoid. I was first worried about the gearbox/synchro's, but after 400 miles it works great now...I think I just needed to get used to the shifting...Eventually I will take it for a full recheck at LFSC...when its warmer outside...
If it is only smoking at start up/ warm up and not later while driving I would bet you are looking at the condensate burning off. Does it dissapate? Oil smoke will break up but will still be seen, condensation will be absorbed into the air and just dissappear. Also I am a little concerned about all that oil you are pouring in it, you are making a bit of a whiches brew out of it. Why don't you get it changed to a good brand and a grade that makes sense for your climate and keep track of it for a while? Consistancy in checking methodolgy is important to get a handle on it's consumption.
I'll second that -- you may be looking at two separate issues, here. During cold humid mornings (coastal climate), my 328 blows fog like a hollywood sfx machine for 20 minutes or so, until it gets all the condensation out of the exhaust. But a car run on dead dino oil will tend to leak a bit when introduced to synth oil. You should probably get an oil change anyway, if you don't know the age of the stuff in there. Then you can get a handle on the actual consumption (including what it may be leaving on the garage floor). You might try holding a clean white handkerchief over the exhaust to see what collects on it. But a new-to-you car is likely going to be a big question until you get it into the shop for a major service and let your mechanic poke into all the nooks and crannies. That's why I don't put much faith in "just serviced" or "runs great" ads on used cars. Things that the previous owner stopped noticing will be a new worry for you, until you've had the car baselined at a major service. One other thing to be careful about, on cold mornings: "Max performance" tires don't work very well when cold. My 328's S03s go noticably off below 40F, and my EVO even came with a sticker warning against using the stock Yokos in winter.
Thanks guys. Rifledriver, the oil change is pending, awaiting warmer weather. I am now keeping accurate track of oil consumption. I have been driving the car almost exclusively between 4000 rpm and 7000 rpm, figuring the motor needs a good shakedown... I tried the white napkin test already. Nothing really came onto it, except for the sooty outline of the exhaust... Oh well, I'll keep using it and see what happens...it does look a bit like a "smoke machine" from a special effects movie...
I'd change the oil; tell the dealer to measure the oil he puts in and not use the dipstick. I don't know about Testarossas, but the dipstick on my Lotus, and my friends Lotus' all read a different level when full. I'd remove overfilling from the equation if you can. Ken
Open up the owner's manual and make sure you are checking the oil the right way. 308s for example require the car to get warm and then sit for a few minutes before checking. If checked at other times a wrong reading will occur. An overfill is possible.
I thought of an overfill first. I have checked the car cold, warm, hot, and a couple of minutes after stopping. Levels are approximately the same (1/4 inch off at most)...
I wouldn't suspect overfill. I agree with an earlier post about introducing synthetic to a motor which is not accustomed: It's a lot slipperier, especially when cold. This may be enough to sneak some past the valve guides. Change the oil, watch it carefully, and then follow your wife's suggestion. Sounds like you are going to love the ride. Good luck.
Was it smoking out of both sides? I am not sure on the TRs but the Boxer exhaust is separated more do to straight headers and no cats, even so if your exhaust is joined together you may have an intermittent bank going out due to ignition of fuel issue that would dump raw fuel/smoke out one side then clear up as the bank begins firing.Grey smoke is more raw fuel.
Thanks for the further input... I think I will stick to dino oil from now on...I just didn't think 1 quart or so of syhthetic would matter (I must have 20 or so quarts of synthetic 20/50 laying around, its primarily what I used in my other cars)... I have thought about going to all synthetic originally, now, of course, I can't see doing that... Regarding the comment on raw fuel. If it were rich, wouldn't it smoke immediately upon starting, and then die down??? The part that confuses me is that it doesn't smoke for a while after start up (30 sec, maybe a minute), and then starts. Suggests that water/oil/etc is pooling somewhere and needs to heat up to be expelled... Questions to the mechanics out there: If the issue were weak rings, wouldn't the car smoke IMMEDIATELY on start up? If the issue were worn guides (doubtful), wouldn't it smoke IMMEDIATELY on start up? I would think that the temps in the cylinder would vaporize any fluids in there within the first couple of revolutions... HHHMMMM, maybe my 3 year old boys are pouring something into the exhaust when I'm not looking....they did stuff my pager into the vcr once - tooks us months to figure out where the heck it was... What is normal oil usage anyway? I have seen 1 quart per 600 miles thrown around. The workshop manual states .2 to .4 gallons per 600 miles depending on usage - sounds like 1-2 quarts per 600 miles?! That seems very high... Gotta love a car where oil usage is "normal." The flat porsche motors allow a quart up to every 1500 miles...
Jeff, thats a good thought...Ill keep it in mind... As a seperate issue - I thinks it fascinating when folks discuss the color of smoke. Is it white? Grey? Blue? Black? Etc. Quite frankly, its not that easy to tell...
Make sure you are checking the oil level properly. Since the T/R has a dry sump lubrication system, the oil should be checked immediately after the engine is shut off and before it drains back into the separate oil tank.
Smoke color is hard to tell, especially on a cold Midwest day. I know nothing about TR engines, but if there is oils eeping by the valve guides, and pooling somewhere, isn't it plausible that that "pooled "oil would burn off after a brief run, as the engine heats up, hence the second burning? Also, is there any way for oil to leak into the exhaust system, through a broken gasket or something. I am thinking that again, it would be something that would burn off as the engine heated up. Consumption is sounding kinda high. Interesting problem, keep us posted.
Your confusion about the smoke is easy. The exhaust when cooling, especially in a humid environment, causes water vapor in the air to condense in it. When you start the motor it takes a little time for the exhaust to get hot enough to start revaporizing it. It is classic TR, don't worry. TRs also have a habit especially after being shut down after a hard run of blowing a sizeable cloud of blue, or oil smoke at start up. Again, classic TR, don't worry. I do not believe from what you have said that rings or valve guides are in question. Also TR's are not known to have trouble with them. As for oil consumption, when run hard it will go through a little oil. It should never rise to the "fill the oil and ck the gas" catagory. Just ck it when you get gas. As for checking it. It is a dry sump and holds a lot of oil, oil expands from heat so you need to check it hot. I like to see the oil temp at LEAST 160 to ck. And it needs to be checked within 15 seconds after turning off the motor. Motor oils. Ours ran on dinosaur oil most of it's life, I changed to synthetic with no change in smoke, consumption, or leakage. If you have leak problems they may increase but they should be fixed anyway. I have changed many cars over to syn. with the same results. I am with Mr. Haas on syn oils. I have been in the business a long time and consider them to be one of the best things that has ever happened to the internal combustion engine. On our Bonneville car we document and record every run and upon switching to syn oil (Redline) with NO other changes we dropped 60 degrees in oil temp. I am however reluctant to be as bold as he in weights so I would go with a 10-40 or so for warm weather. For winter I'll leave it up to you guys that live in it.
Forever loose the thought of going back to mineral oils, they just don't perform as well as synthetic. F-cars are set up with very close tolerances and garage queens tighten and or stick their rings easily. I swear by putting 3 ounces/per 10 gallons gas with Lucas gas treatment and upper cylinder lubricant. This will forever keep your rings free. This treatment also cleans carbon and varnish from ports and combustion chambers. Also Run that queen very hard for at least a half an hour or more, the old Italian tune up works very well and will not hurt your bullet proof F-motor one bit. F-cars that have not been driven very much or very long, accumulate oil in the mufflers, this requires getting the heat-up in the exhaust system to burn it out. The car will really smoke while doing this but will soon clear up, so just have faith and keep your foot in it. While your giving the Italian tune-up use the Lucas! Your motor wil run so smooth for it. By the way Syntec is one of the lowest performing synthetics out there. The top performers are Redline, Amsoil and Mobil one. All these oils contain an additive package, so don't add any additional. gary
Always love the info... Rifledriver...whats the name of your shop? Any pictures? Thanks again! Gary...I have mixed thoughts now on the synthetics...I once put mobil 1 in a 76 911s, got 3 good sized leaks, and much more smoke on start up...but it smoked to start with, and had 150k miles...I do use synthetics in my newer cars, but the older cars just bite me everytime I use it... What are your thoughts on Techron - I have always used this, and am not too familiar with Lucas. In regards to oils, any thoughts on the "High Mileage" oils being touted now - ie. Valvoline, Castrol, etc. Supposed to help the seals expand....Snake oil, or does it work? I know the same companies make additives which claim to do the same. Tried these in the porsche, didn't really do anything... Anyone ever empirically test these motor oils? Any articles on these? Would it harm the motor to try?
Well that comment hit the spot, my Mondial is running with Valvoline Fully syn oil that is supposed to reduce oil consumption and reduce leaks. To be honest, I have not really done enought miles to do a consumption check, but last year after a trip to LeMans, 1500 + miles and all kinds of driving conditions no appreciable oil useage and I believe that the small pool under the car is now smaller. I was pleased with the result. BTW, the car has <>40k on the clock.
In regards to oils, any thoughts on the "High Mileage" oils being touted now - ie. Valvoline, Castrol, etc. Supposed to help the seals expand....Snake oil, or does it work? I know the same companies make additives which claim to do the same. Tried these in the porsche, didn't really do anything... Anyone ever empirically test these motor oils? Any articles on these? Would it harm the motor to try?[/QUOTE] Well that comment hit the spot, my Mondial is running with Valvoline Fully syn oil that is supposed to reduce oil consumption and reduce leaks. To be honest, I have not really done enought miles to do a consumption check, but last year after a trip to LeMans, 1500 + miles and all kinds of driving conditions no appreciable oil useage and I believe that the small pool under the car is now smaller. I was pleased with the result. BTW, the car has <>40k on the clock.[/QUOTE] No experience with high mileage oils. One thing I have found in the car business is that there more prejudices on motor oil than anything I have experienced. In so far as major names are concerned compared to ten or twenty years ago there are no bad oils. Pick one, just use the correct weight.
Philip, which fully synthetic oil are you using? I haven't seen any of the synthetics claim to stop leaks (Or are the high mileage oils synthetics?)...
Well that comment hit the spot, my Mondial is running with Valvoline Fully syn oil that is supposed to reduce oil consumption and reduce leaks. To be honest, I have not really done enought miles to do a consumption check, but last year after a trip to LeMans, 1500 + miles and all kinds of driving conditions no appreciable oil useage and I believe that the small pool under the car is now smaller. I was pleased with the result. BTW, the car has <>40k on the clock.[/QUOTE] No experience with high mileage oils. One thing I have found in the car business is that there more prejudices on motor oil than anything I have experienced. In so far as major names are concerned compared to ten or twenty years ago there are no bad oils. Pick one, just use the correct weight.[/QUOTE] Brian, You are so very right. I cannot vouch for the properties of specialty oils (eg; "truck/SUV, high mileage, racing and such"), but most of it has more to do with marketing. By coming up with more "segment specific" motor oils, a given company can garner more "shelf space" in the motor oils aisle. More "facings" of bottles, means a greater likelihood of a purchaser buying that brand of oil.....
Techtron is one of the pyrozene compound gas additives that really do disolve carbon throughout your motor. Techtron is one of the best but also the most expensive. If you use it, use a top lube with it. Think about it, gas has no lubrication properties and actually removes oil at the top end of the motor. Your rings, valve guides, and valve seals will all work better and last longer if lube is provided in the fuel. The side bennefit of top lube is that it keeps things running so well and smoother that you will find yourself doing less tune-ups and more seat time. Get this book! The Motor Oil Bible by Michael Kaufman-Email: [email protected]. Everything is there including additives, its really informative! gary
When I bought my car from LFSC, I asked Tyler what oil they have been using to service the tr. He did say that they used 20/50 castrol non synthetic oil and have been using for this car since new.. BPU; if LFSC did the last service then more than likely you have the castrol in your car too. I also have used techron and been satisfied with the results. I did switched to stp fuel system cleaner about two years ago. Now for the experts... I have been using synthethic oil on my newer cars since new and will be sticking with it. I have been reluctant to use synthetic on my 89 tr especially when the dealer has been using dino since new. I have read from many different places about the oil leak than can happened if switched from dino to synthetic. At this time I have no oil leak from the tr and happy with that. I know synthetic is better is some ways than dino however, do I gamble on the change? I have been using dino oil on my Porsche 930 for about 10 years now and no problems yet. Is it worth the change for the tr if I am very religious about changing my dino oil... BTW I do most of the work on my cars so I know what goes in. I appreciate all the inputs, thanks to all.
Brian is quite correct, oil is a real discussion point and I believe that nowadays there is no bad oil. Ican only share my experiences as I see them. Some time back I put Mobile 1 in my wifes Bmer and and Aston DBS I had at the time. The Bmer burnt it like a bonfire !! and I ended up going back to minerial. The Aston I sold, so I have no experience of it's performance. In all other newer cars I have had, usually Alfa's I use a fully syn oil without problems at all. Now my Ferrari, it uses hardly any oil at all. I would need to check invoices to see what was in it when I bought it, but used Castrol on my first oil change, then went to the Valvoline Max Life 10w 40 as mentioned. It seems to work well, no smoke, good pressure, and this includes a couple of hours stuck in a queue at Lemans in 30 c + temp. So, I am happy with this stuff and will use it again,,,,,,,unless something else turns up !!!!!!!!!! By the way, what is the experience with Slick 50 stuff ?
