Manual vs. F1, Why?

"I was asking the board for their opinion on why people are buying the paddle cars, and in the board's opinion what percent of paddle buyers would not have bought the car at all if the paddles were not available?"

OK - I buy paddle cars because, to me, the paddle shifter is more like a racing sequential gearbox. I have never used the auto button. I'd think the manual might be better for stop and go driving.

I'd buy the cars regardless of the type of shifter offered.

And I couldn't agree more with Dale:

"The race mode F1 is a Stradale is the ONLY way to drive that car."

 

[Flames quenched... Brian C. Stradale]

There's a couple of pics of my F430 here:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134630397&postcount=348

And yes - it's a F1! The F1 system on the F430 is just about perfect. The more torque has helped it a lot.

 

I think I read in Forza's last issue that like 80% of the 430's are going to be paddle shift. That may not be exact, but it's some very high number like that and it suprised me very much

I have not driven an F1 style paddle flip car, but driven a triptronic Porsche. I can only say that for me, there is no way I would ever buy a paddle shift car. It removed me from the driving experience, instead of making me more involved.

Now on a twisty back road it was easier to control the car, and I could drive the car much faster with much more control, so in that respect it was great; but still I left unsatisfied. I like the feel of shifting gears, and using your entire body to drive the car.

However I can see why people would like this too. First, the technology is just way cool. Second, it's more percise, gives more control, and in a lot of respects is probably all around better for for driving the car fast.

Maybe I'm just a purest, maybe I'm "old school", but to be honest, if Ferrari ever gave an option of a normal manual vs the gated shifter, there is no way I would get anything but the gated shifter. If they went to all paddle shift, it would be a serious thought to if I would even buy the car at all. The sound, the look, the feel, manual gated transmission all the way....that's a Ferrari.

 

AFAIK the Porsche tiptronic is an automatic with manual up/downshift, just like Merc's Speedtronic. There's a HUGE difference between an auto and the F1. An auto is just not as precise as the F1. Our CL/SL55's also have the "tiptronic" option, and it's close to worthless. Changes still takes way too long and are not precise enough. The manual change option is only good for forcing it to stay in a certain gear (if you for instance are getting ready to overtake).

You should try a 360 or 575 with F1 - you might like it...

 

If my car would have come with a 6 speed instead of F1, I still would have bought it. I was mostly concerned with appearance and how mechanically sound the car was. In the back of my mind I thought I would be purchasing a manual transmission, but when the car I wanted appeared I didn't want to wait any longer. I'm in love with the look, sound and feel of the car and those were my reason for buying the car. Maybe that's not cool, but I don't race and I'm absolutely not disappointed. I drove the car in auto mode once on the first day and hated it. The car is in 6th at 45 mph. I think the auto mode is fairly useless (IMHO).

 

I think the reason people are buying the 430 with the F1 is because Ferrari hasn't made any with a six speed at the moment. Apparently the F1 box is greatley improved than what the 360 had, and it's how the car was desinged. It wasn't designed with a six speed in mind.

 

agreed, the tiptronic is really an automatic...i hate shifting these...a waste of time...the f1, smg and egear trannys are really manual transmissions with a mechanical , automatic clutch and paddle shifters..a big difference...driving an f1 for the first time is a very cool experience

 

Some one, some the other, some a combo.

That's hard to say. For example, the F1 is a key part of the appeal for me... I took my 360F1 to the track and I take my CS to the track... I love the performance that it brings... and I can enjoy the paddle shifting everywhere... its just good fun.

However, I intend to add a second Ferrari to my garage... that one will NOT be a paddle shifter... it'll be a vintage Dino 246 GTS, most likely.

You see, I do like shifting... its fun. But no matter how good you are at heel-and-toe, shifting is just plain awkward on the track... that's why even the F1 drivers have it.

But to your question: had the 360 and CS not had F1, would have I bought it as my track car?? Not sure... a Lotus Elise's super light weight might have won the day. But without F1 and carbon brakes, the Elise can't touch the CS, IMO.

So, while it may be many who bought Ferraris would not have without F1 trannys, it may not be out of any fear or dislike of shifting... it may simply be that some of the charm that justifies the price tag may not have been there.

FWIW,

 

In the Modena, in normal mode it will auto-upshift when you hit redline.
But in sport mode, which is what you should be in on the track, it will just bounce off the rev-limiter.

In the CS, it starts in sport and then goes to race mode... in both modes it just bounces off the rev-limiter.

 

A tiptronic is NOTHING like an F1... night and day.
I'd NEVER want a tiptronic as a track car;
while I certainly DO want a F1 as a track car!

 

Ferrari has survived over 50 years without girly shifters.
Leave the girly shifters to the girls.
I will be laughing at all the girlymen after Ferrari stops making replacement parts for these cars. You think that the turn signal clusters on 308's are expensive? Hmmmm.

 

I am a technology junky and love the latest gadgetries in my car and in my house. In most racecars, especially formula cars where they use conventional sequential gearbox, the only time a clutch is used is to catch 1st gear. All other times there is no clutch required. So you don’t have to resort paddle shifters for this application. The only downside is if you want to go from 6th to 3rd you have to go through all the gears in between but that’s how the paddle shifter in street Ferraris is set up as well. I am not sure if Ferrari’s gearbox technology from F1 is comparable to their road going cars. I think the only similarities are in having the same two paddles each side of the wheel. The way those gears are changed are totally different and way more brutal than the road going version. There also must be a reason where the Risi 360GT team opted for a conventional sequential gearbox rather than paddle shifters. And, I don't think it had anything to do with the maintenance. When I talked with them during their test session at Sears they said there is more control and more response with the former. They also opted to bypass the throttle by wire and use mechanical linkage for the same reason, quicker response than a uP running zillions of instructions per second to figure out where the driver wants the throttle position.

I also have had the opportunity to drive a paddle shifter 360 from time to time and I can categorically say it does not fit with my driving style. I really missed my 6-speed 360 because there is so much more to driving the car than just flipping the paddles. Even at full throttle there is noticeable hesitation. I admit in very rare occasions when I am under heavy braking and downshifting for a corner and only into 2nd I may prefer the paddles, in all other situations I prefer my 6-speed and I probably do just as well blipping the throttle both on downshift and upshift for smooth and seamless transition.

Given that I only drive the 360 for enjoyment, I usually take routes to get the juices flowing and rarely run into traffic and never have to answer the phone when I am in the middle of a corner. I personally wouldn't by a paddle shifter unless I was convinced it could do better than I shifting the gears at all situations.

 

I like the technical aspects, too, one reason I became an engineer. But, there is such a thing as over-engineering.

One other maintenence thing that no one on this forum seems to mention. I'm getting feedback from F mechanics that F1 clutch disk life is averaging from 6,000 to maybe 10,000 miles (at the outside) before replacement! I think Forza also made the same statement in a recent article.

One F. mechanic reported that in trying to move a 360 a few feet in his shop, the clutch was slipping so much that the car was enveloped in a cloud of clutch smoke.


If you have an F1 and are happy with it, all the better.

The paddle shifter may be great for exlusively track use, but I don't see it for myself in only street use. Case in point, I ran my F355 during the Ferrari Club event at the Fontana track a few years ago. During the driver's meeting , a 360 owner that was sitting along side of me said he " ...wished he had my car". Surprised, I asked why, he stated the problems he has with his 360's F1 system left him disappointed.


YMMV. Go figure.

Al

 

Is it true that with a F1 shifter you can't back the car up a hill?

 

FNA reportedly stated that the design life for a computer-controlled F1 clutch is 10K miles.

But that's like 10 years worth of driving for the typical Ferrari "enthusiast" so it's no big deal.

 

So very true, and now we know why some owners drive only 1,000 miles a year! Sad.

 

My only gripe with the F1 is that it isn't a 7 speed. They didn't find it feasible with the 355 to make two dedicated transmissions (6 stick, 7 F1), but with the 360 I would have made all F1 w/ 7 speed and no stick shift. Then you could fully take advantage of the F1 system and they still would only produce one transmission. I would offer the 575 in stick and F1 just like they do, both with 6 spd. So if you wanted a stick in a new car one could always get that. If not, there are like 30,000 308s - 355s.

 

i have over 5,000 miles on my yellow stradale and the clutch wear is only 10 percent. the F1 in a stradale works very well.

some people don't want to hear this but it's fairly obvious that sooner than later ferrari will stop offering the manual gearbox entirely. it's old technology and they seem determined to introduce the latest technology developed in their racing program into their road cars. don't shoot the messenger...

 

Don't worry, after Japan (Honda/Toyota) or Germany (BMW/MB) does it then Ferrari will..........as always

 

I agree with your assessment. I think the 6sp has a limited lifespan from here. I would suspect they at one point will make the 6sp a cost-option. When the 6sp percentage then decreases to 5-10% they can say that nobody wants it, and stop producing manuals altogether.

 

Even though I've never owned anything but manuals, I don't know that it's such a bad thing that eventually it will be phased out by the F1. There are tens of thousands of stick Ferraris, millions of manual cars in general. It's not like there aren't options if you get tired of your current car. When non-syncho boxes were phased out by synchoed versions 40 years ago it was the same situation. A faster, more efficient (less involving) system replaced what was the standard of the day, and then eventually became the standard itself. Right now we seem to be in that transition stage, kind of like when only half the box was synchroed back in the day.

 

I have the reverse answer--if the F430 was only offered in an F1, I would not buy it, and I would keep my 360 6 speed.

I don't know how others on this board drive their cars, but there have to be some people in my boat. I work long days, have family commitments, projects, etc. I have a short drive to work, so it isn't my favorite thing to bring the F-car with me. Yet, I want the car to be driven regularly. When I have a time block of several hours, I will head for the hills. And I enjoy the track (and I think there is great enjoyment to be had with an F1 in those settings). But, most of my driving (milage wise) is either longer freeway trips (tranny doesn't matter) or city/suburban errand running.

My issue is that the F1 (to me) performs poorly in slower speed/lower RPM shifting, or quick acceleration (say to 30 mph then backing off), and in parking maneuvers (esp. if a hill is involved). Unfortunately for my situation, that is where most of my F car driving occurs, and my "fast driving" is blasting on or off the freeway (I do love 100 + mph on deserted on/off ramps). To me, the manual is much easier to live with in my situation (smoother in those situations, not as hard on the clutch, etc.)

 

Guys, you realize that the F1 transmission is simply the same ordinary 6 speed manual that comes with the car, the F1 electro hydraulic stuff is simply slapped on it ... it is not a different design.

 

I was thinking the same thing. As long as Ferrari bases the F1 trans off of a regular manual trans, you should be able to convert F1 to manual. There was a picture floating around a while back on this site of a 575 with both manual and F1 transmissions. When in F1 mode, the stick had to be put in neutral and then the F1 could work (probably had to turn on an F1 mode computer or something).

 

I believe Ferrari is making 80% of the F430 as F1