How much is too much in racing?

Mr. Todt says "No" to sports cars.

See how easy that was?????

 

I can live without F1 and would love to see them put more effort (read: factory direct, not through independant customers) into sportscar racing. They did it back in the 50's, 60's & 70's, it'd be nice to see that again.

Nice to hear from you again Bret.

 

And that's unusual because his background is in rallying and was also involved in Group C for Peugeot.

 

LOL! His job now is something called "profitability"....

I've seen much the same shift myself, if you're good with engineering, they move you to management...

Don't ask me, that's just how it works!

 

I highly doubt that Ferrari would consider making a 2.0L to compete in WRC, and Ferrari's are already found in the JGTC, which Ferrari may sponsor the cars to, but in no way are supporting the cars, I think.

What is their Formula 1 budget and what does an F1 race and championship garner them, in terms of financial gain? I think I read a Forza mag #59 that said they had a parts budget of $400M.

 

As far as merchandising goes, logic would tell me that they surpassed the saturation point looooong ago. Looks like I'M the idiot As far as the racing end of things go, you can bet your bottom dollar that Ferrari are as meticulous in their budgeting and accounting as they are in their racecraft, so they will keep on shaking the money tree to go racing at whatever level they can sustain excellence.

 

This is why we love Ferrari, because of their passion. They could very easily go down the same road as Porsche. Come out with a SUV and suspend all motorsports efforts so they can sell more cars and increase profitability. Ferrari isn't about selling cars and making profits, its about their passion to design and manufacturer the perfect sports car. F1 is Ferrari's R&D for their production cars, along with improving their brand image. In addition, Ferrari competes because it has been their tradition. These days when you think of a sports car or racing, people immediatley recognize Ferrari. I understand they should be more effecient about how they spend on their F1 program, but the reality is to compete in F1 and be at the top, you need a large budget. Personally, considering the size of a company Ferrari is compared to Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Honda and Toyota, they have been the most effecient. Take Honda and Toyota's budget for example, they are almost double. These are auto manufacturers who build some of the best cars, but are having a hard time competeing with Ferrari. In my opinion, if Ferrari were to cut their budget or even pull out of F1, they would sell less cars and of course hurt their brand. I wouldn't buy a Ferrari if they were a losing team in F1. I would think Ferrari is the worst sports car ever. Take Jaguar for example, part of the reason they pulled out was because their image was getting killed. They were the laughing stalk in F1. Ford which is one of the largest auto manufacturers was getting beat by Jordan and sometimes Minardi. Ferrari's acheivements in F1 has contributed to their success in selling the best sports cars. In addition, it has made Ferrari an Icon.

 

It's a bit unfair to question Porsche's "passion" when you consider that Ferrari has the backing of a multi-billion dollar car empire to stand behind and Porsche is nothing more than a small independant car maker that struggles to survive.

If someone, like say, VW or GM owned Porsche and stood behind them they most likley wouldn't be designing SUV's.

While in today's climate Ferrari does indeed strive to engineer the perfect sports car, that is not where the will to succeed in racing came from at all. If Enzo had it his way back in the 50's and 60's (and had FIAT writing all the checks) none of us would be driving Ferrari street cars. Enzo had absolutely zero interest in ceating anything other than world class RACE cars. As he stated many times, his road cars were simply to fund his race cars.

You can find any number of deragatory quotes from Enzo about his street car customers.

Don't forget Honda and Porsche (engines) cleaned Ferrari's clock for nearly 10 years straight. F1 goes in cycles where teams dominate for a while then someone finally beats them. McLaren dominated for a longer time than Ferrari has and there we great spells of success at Williams in the late 80's early 90's.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
www.flatoutracing.net

 

You need to wake up and smell the reality. Does no one here know Ferrari history?!? Go here and scroll down to my current economic evaluation of Ferrari's money situation and brief history between Porsche and Ferrari Racing philosophy:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46830

As far as this discussion is concerned, If Enzo were alive all the money would be put into F1. Now that the F1 team is dominating he would have turned some focus to sports cars. That's the way he always had done it. As soon as the F1 team started loosing ground all assets would be brought back to bear in F1.

As far as buying a Ferrari if they were a loosing team you're damed straight I would. I was rooting for them in the 80s, and 90s when they had the largest budget and STILL couldn't win. That's what it means to be a TIFFOSI!

And as far a Jag pulling out because they were getting killed... well you don't know sh*t about anything in the racing world. They pulled out because Ford (who owns them) is loosing money on it's Premier Group, which Jag is a part of. The F1 division was just too expensive to keep going with losses due to the the new X-type not selling. It had nothing to do with loosing face. I still remember them winning IMSA and LeMans with the Group C cars and in still think that's where Jag belongs. In sports car racing. Not F1.

 

Jon,

I am not questioning Porsche's "Passion" to build cars. I understand Porsche is an independent company, but you have to realize they have some backing from VW. In addition, they never were in real trouble. Its odd that they were involved in racing when they were barely making money and today they are more profitable than ever and they have no motorsports efforts. This is where I question their passion not for only racing but building great sports cars. I am not saying their cars today are not great, all I am saying they are not what they used to be. Take the 996 for example, why was the production on it cut short? Because buyers complained, that the 996 was not what a Porsche should be. Granted that Porsche was trying to develop something revolutionary, buyers still felt reluctant about it. I know Porsche is in the business to sell cars and make money. But if you are passionate about something won't the money come? If they focused on building the best sports cars, won't people buy it? This is why I love Ferrari. They are small company which is passoinate about what they do. They focus on being the best because they love it. Just like,why is Schumacher the best and most successful F1 driver ever. Because he loves racing.

Vic

 

Vic - allow me to correct some points in your argument:

1. Porsche is not now, and has never been, owned by Volkswagen in any way whatsoever. End of story.

2. Porsche has NO 'backing' from VW. End of story.

3. About 10 years ago, Porsches' corporate planners realized they were on a path with very rapidly diminishing returns, and in fact were no longer profitable. The founding/owning families determined to change that. They have. SUV's have been a big part of that. Deferring factory racing efforts, and shifting the racing expenses to 'privateers' has been a big part of it. (by the way, check the final placings at Daytona in GT.)

4. Production on the 996 cut short? Buyers complained? Well, yes, to evolve into the 997. No unsold 996's littering the dealers lots that I can see.......Still a "911".

5. Lack of "passion"? In your opinion perhaps; not shared by anyone inside Porsche, nor anyone who knows Porsche.

enuf; argue from facts, or at least informed opinion......

James

 

Vic,

To my knowledge Porsche receives nothing from WV besides an exchange of Christmas cards between the Piechs (who own Porsche shares) and the Porsche's (who own some VW shares)

Porsche does at times enter into design or production contracts with VW but this is no different than any other contracts such as when Porsche was contracted by Mercedes to assemble the Merc 500E. People get confused over the 914 and 924 which used VW parts. The 914 was origianlly to be a VW developed by Porsche but VW backed out and left Porsche holding the bag (and the parts). Thus the 914 became a Porsche. Similar thing with the 924.

Other than the Cayenne and the few Audi RS2 Estates Porsche doesn't recieve anything from VW to my knowledge.

As a past Porsche owner I do somewhat agree on your asessment of the current crop of Porsche's prior to the 997. Porsche has been building very boring cars for the US up until a few years ago with the arrival of the GT2 and GT3.

Your quote about "if you are passionate won't the money come"? is great in theory but doesn't work in the real world. There is little money to be had in racing. Racing is an expensive form of marketing and competition. I would never ever question the passion of the folks who worked at Lotus in the 70's and 80's but passion doesn't bring in money.

Porsche simply can't spend millions to race in a world dominated by manufaturers who can spend 10 times more.

If FIAT had not bought Ferrari and continued to fund it, Ferrari would not exist in F1 today.

Regards,

Jon

 

The statement from Ford was that they were pulling out because they had to shut down one of the Jaguar facilities which employed 1000 people, in addition not only did they get out of F1, they sold Cosworth. They could not justify spend $180million a year on racing. In addition, it was also stated not by Ford, but one member of the team said that it is better Ford is pulling out, as F1 has hurt the Jaguar brand because of dissapointing results.

 

Jon,

Thanks for the clarification on the relationship between Porsche and Volkswagen. I never meant that VW owns part of Porsche. All I was stating they do get help. Like you said they had some callborations in the past like the original beetle, 914, Audi RSR and now the Cayenne and the Toureg. I would think thats getting some help from VW, especially when the Cayenne is the highest selling Porsche in North America. In addition, I still think Porsche's are great cars, I use to own a 964 and as you and I agree they had gone downhill until the 997, GT3 and GT2. As for Ferrari and Fiat, you are correct, if it wasn't for Fiat, Ferrari would not be in F1 today. Going forward, apparently by 2008 Fiat will stop funding Ferrari's F1 program and they would have to rely on their sponsorships.

Vic

 

I'd be surprised if Ferrari had 1000 people directly involved in their F1 effort. There isn't *that* much to do.

 

I have not read all the posts above in detail ... 'cause I have way to much work to do, but in a sense I agree with the thread starter.

In the end Ferrari winning ALL the time does NOT help marketing of their product or skill at racing ... to the average Joe it comes across as the the opposition are weak, and thus Ferrari are not achieving much. Yes it is Ferraris time (never before have they dominated like this in F1) and yes I can understand their want to sustain it ... but they need to engineer competitiveness in the series, thus again I come to this point:

1. They need to engineer competition between their 2 drivers. Yes it may hurt them a little, but it will keep the racing exciting and draw people to the brand ... and cement the fact that Ferrari are all about racing, not just cruising like poofs to an apparently easy win. Yes ofcourse it was not as easy as it looks, but even to me it really is too easy for MS to embarrass RB, knowing full well that if the going gets tough the team will slow RB, etc.
2. They need to replace RB with a more aggressive racer, if removing the team orders (and yes I still believe the team work for MS and if necessary work a race to help him) does not fire up his belly. IMO he is very fast but is not the best racer on the grid.
3. They DO need to increase their support of sportscar classes. F1 to many is not perceived as real cars and thus pointless. Now I am not saying Ferrari should build Le Mans type cars, etc. ... but they need to follow Porsches traditional lead by developing many more factory race components. Yes I know they have the Challenge series ... but that is not a series engineered to make the Ferrari car better against other makes, so racing a Challenge Ferrari against a properly engineered Porsche means that the Porsches has a huge advantage before the start flag drops. With Porsches you can get a competition catalogue and basically buy whatever you need and you are ready for Le Mans ... you buy a Ferrari and you have to then start all over by taking it to a race shop and throwing away 90% of the car to make it in to a race car. That is pathetic for a company that lives and breathes racing ... or is supposed to.

Unfortunately Ferrari's current direction is tunnelling IMO in the wrong direction. Currently Luca is over exposing the brand to embarrassing levels and they appear to not understand sportsmanship ... which is hurting their image (yep talk to my work mates ... infact talk to any person that does not have Ferrari blood).

Pete
ps: Ford pulled out of F1 due to massive financial troubles. They did not pull out due to poor results. The poor results are due to the financial issues and thus the team did not have the funds. In the end Ford bought Stewart F1 for the wrong reasons (marketing BS, instead of racing first) and put the wrong brand on the car. Ford IMO (and I believe many others have the same opinion) made a huge mistake selling Cosworth and thus completely bailing on their F1 presense. Cosworth was a fantastic brand for Ford ... far better than the cr@p Jaguar brand that I would not have paid a cent for.

Yep I love old Jags ... but you cannot save every company from their own stupidity, and Jaguar has absolutely nothing to do with F1 and is IMO completely wrong for their image, of GRACE and PACE ... not the violent world of F1. And we wonder why Ford is loosing money hand over feet? ... I don't, it is being run by complete d!ckheads at the moment.