Wheel balance issues after reinstalling wheels - 308 | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Wheel balance issues after reinstalling wheels - 308

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Mike328, Feb 2, 2004.

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  1. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Superformance's response to my inquiry about just the two rings:

    "Fronts are the only problem."


    Wow... Glad to hear THAT. As if they're aware of either the potential for spacing issues in the front rims, or some other manufacturing in the front rims.

    Yikes. Well, I do know lots of folks have vibration with their superformance 16" rims, period.

    I'll try the rings tomorrow, and we'll see how they do.

    If I can get the vibration out, I'll be quite pleased with the rims.
     
  2. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Newman, I've seen many 308 discs balanced using clips. Sometimes they have material machined away also.

    The clips are usually placed on the inside edge of the cooling vanes, so you need to remove the disc to see it.

    The Superformance wheels are designed to fit the larger 328 hub centre, which is why the need for the rings on the 308 hub.

    Tyres can and do slip quite a lot.

    My 360 Speciale (I keep going on about lately!) just did a track day, and I always mark the tyre wall where the valve is. Now, this is an extreme case but the front tyres turned over 1/4 of a turn! Or maybe many turns, how can you tell! The ambient was well over 40 deg C and track temp was 68 deg C, yes 68 deg Centigrade, and of course it is slick tyres.

    Surprisingly, there were no vibration problems though.

    Check your tyres for radial run out, where the tyre appears to get larger and smaller in diameter as it revolves. More than 3mm or so will cause steering wobble.
     
  3. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
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    Your tires flat spot when they sit motionless for long periods of time. The flat spot goes away when the tire warms until you let it sit for another long period of time.
     
  4. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Wow--I had no idea they were designed for 328s... Do you know why the rears aren't a problem (do 308/328s then have the same rear "mounting hub" diameter?). Would you say the rings should be "required" for the front superformance wheels used in 308 applications?
     
  5. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Who supplied this info about the repop rims being designed for a 328 hub? I have factory 328 rims on my 308, no vibrations all the way past 240kph and no rings. The rims fit tight on my hubs and required no ring for centering them, they look the same as the factory QV rim I have as well.
     
  7. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    The 328 wheel bearing unit is bigger on the front than a 308 unit. If you look at the wheel, you'll see the hub centre is bigger.

    They CAN and sometimes DO go straight on a 308 without trouble. But for some reason they SOMETIMES vibrate if not seated correctly.

    A 308 wheel will not fit a 328, due to the front hub diamneter, unless it's been modified.
     
  8. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Great news!

    Yesterday I put the rings in the wheels (fronts only), got the wheels on the car, and all vibration is GONE. It's amazing how much the wheel vibration took away from the experience with the car.

    In any case, these rings make mounting VERY TIGHT, and I hope that that's OK.

    First, it took some serious WHAPPING with a rubber mallet, wood block, and shop cloth over the ring to get it into the wheel's hub center; this is not just a little "tap." This is probably by design. This is with having cleaned things out very well, and even adding a little lubricant inbetween the parts.

    Second was, the wheels did not just "go" on with the hub rings installed. The clearance was too tight. I was able to get most of the bolts "started" (threaded), then had to, for about five minutes straight, using a standard opposites torquing pattern, tighten the bolts one by one, a little at a time, using the bolts themselves to "Scoot" the wheel onto the hub, 0.1mm at a time. Again, this is with things cleaned and lubricated.

    I'm hoping this is what you guys would have done. I'm also wondering how hard removing the wheels is going to be, and if they would be any easier to install time?

    It's almost as if the aluminum hub rings themselves needed to be sanded or machined down JUST a hair.

    Needless to say, the wheels are definitely centered now.


    --Mike
     
  9. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    err, no. The wheel should be an easy push fit.

    Take them off again now, before it causes you grief when you're in a hurry!

    Make sure the hub protrusion is perfectly clean, then put some antisieze on. The new wheel rings may need a skim for clearance, but only a small amount.
     
  10. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Ack! That's what I'll do then.

    I hope I haven't already caused any protrusion with the hub rings... I also hope I can get the wheels back off :).

    Would a dremel tool (rotary filer) do OK to skim the rings a bit?
     
  11. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    to skim them by hand with a dremel would give the clearance you need, but there would be no guarantee of concentricity.

    A lathe is best, or mill.

    I fear you may have caused yourself some work, as getting the rings back out will be a mfkr.

    Need a big lathe to get the whole wheel in. May need to dismount the tyre first.

    Bugger.
     
  12. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I suspected that the repop rims being made for a 328 hub was a crock so i checked for myself. I measured my new factory QV rim as well as one of my 328 rims. They are the same inside diameter. I measured 2.640" where the hub locates in the rim. So, there goes that theory. How about another theory, they made the hole too big when they machined the repop rim and the shims they offer for free are to correct the screw up.
     
  13. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    That I can buy.
     
  14. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Newman.
    The QV metric rims have the same inside diameter as 328 as std. It's the 16" we're talking about.

    The 308 QV has the same hub bearing as a 308 2V, but the Mondial of the same vintage has the 328 type hub brg, so all the QV/Mondial series wheels have the larger inside diameter, its just a manufacturing process thing I think.

    To compare apples to oranges rarely works.

    The 14" and 16" 308 wheels from Ferrari DEFINITELY have a smaller inside diameter than the Metric QV wheels. The 328 Ferrari wheels have the larger diameter. The superformance wheels all have the larger diameter, from those that I've seen.

    The reason for the rings though, as you say, is because some wheels are maybe not as well machined as others. There is no argument, it's just the way it is with hand built stuff.
     
  15. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Just reread my post. The 16" QV rim and a factory 328 rim have the same hub diameter in the rim. if the repops dont, they made an error - simple. I dont care what size the bearing is on a 328, they left the outside diameter of the hub the same. Ive also had metric trx rims on my car - no vibrations. I dont hear people whining about factory rims causing problems and there are no rings for the factory rims. That should send up a red flag.
     
  16. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    I agree. A mistake has been made. I find it hard to understand why the bolts don't hold the wheel securely enough to not need the rings......but facts is facts.
     
  17. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Heh. Any ideas how to get the wheels OFF, since they were so ridiculously hard to get ON in the first place?
     
  18. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Did you get my reply Mike?
     
  19. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Sure did, Paul, and I just replied. Thanks for the note.

    --Mike
     
  20. hanknum

    hanknum Formula 3

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    It's not that the lug bolts don't hold the wheel securely. It's that the wheel is not concentric with the hub when they are tightened. The slightest bit off will give a vibration.
     
  21. Jax8308

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    Hey Mike,

    What ever happened? Did you get it figured out?
     
  22. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Well, yeah, for now. The wheels behave much better with the hub rings. I still have no clue how to get them off--went out of town for a wedding and it dropped down a few notches on the list :).

    If they're going to be trouble, I envision some crazy rope/pully system to apply even force around them as I pull them out.

    As far as resizing the rings a bit thinner, I'm not terribly confident I'd be able to get the rings themselves OUT of the front wheels; careful filing until they mount easily may have to suffice.
     
  23. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

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    A good high performance tire place will always first balance the tires off the car on a machine and then mount them and high speed balance them on the car as well. I use Grand Turismo in Chamblee, Georgia and that's the way they always do my tires. I have also used Butler Tire and that's the way they do it too.
     
  24. hanknum

    hanknum Formula 3

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    Mike,

    If there is a little bit of movement after the bolts have been removed then you can probably work the wheel off by "rocking" it off. If they are on solidly, then you may have to rap on the inside of the tire with a mallet. Once you get the wheel off, if the ring came off with the wheel then just tap it out. If the ring is still on the hub, try using a propane torch to heat it up so that it will expand. Be careful with the torch, but the grease should be OK since it should be hi-temp grease. Good luck.

    Henry
     
  25. Wasco

    Wasco Formula Junior

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    I hesitate to mention a P-car but on car balancing was the only way I could get the vibration out of my Porsche 914. It was the rotors out of balance! Made a tremendous difference. I think they actually took them up to about 80 plus MPH, I was there he used the ole hand on the fender balancing method took at least twenty mins per corner.

    Tires do get a flat spot after sitting for more than a day - another good reason to warm the tire before hard driving - besides better traction.

    I have experience tire slipage on the rim as well under hard braking.
     

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