Why are Ferraris so much trouble ?

I was going to post about low production numbers and how that effects quality. Then someone brought up the NSX and blew the **** out of that idea. But it is typically true. The more of something you make, the more engineering you can throw at it and the more samples you have to work out the bugs.

So I guess we have to blame it on Italy then. I sell Italian hifi and it is more persnickity. Same with Italians bikes like Ducati (I know I know...you have a jillion miles on yours...no problems blah blah blah)


I would say there is zero excuse for the poor build. Dashboards that fall apart, and knobs that get goopy from heat. Clutches that go 15k miles. Tie rod ends that needs replacement. Gimme a break.

With computers most of this stuff should be shook out.

 

Small production numbers are certainly a problem and they get a point on their side of the board for that one. Tom and I have experience with problems that have gone on for years. Problems that Ferrari is well aware of that they do not address. The 355 exhaust manifold is a good example. The first generation is junk. Even if I thought they believed that it was a good part (I don't) they had the time to rectify the problem (They didn't). They made the next generation just a little better, they did not fix it. Have you ever seen the list price for one of those? For that kind of money I can have a very talented fabricator make a one off that will last. Another example 1300 dollars for a set of spark plug wires for a 355. How do you justify that? I dont care if you make 1 or 50,000 sets thats criminal. I don't expect perfection from them but for 1300 dollars for 8 spark plug wires I should get it.

 

I think For Ferrari being an exotic, hand build, small number build, high performance, small volume manufactor, history heritage,..... is not excused for building unreliable car. Of course, we are not buying Ferrari for its reliability. You can not expect to get the same reliability for a car you pushed to its red line every time you changed gear as you get from others. But at least, you want to spend time driving it than maintaining it. Shouldn't some of the high price we pay for the car go to maintain reserch? If the 430 cost more to maintain than the 360, would this mean nothing is progressing in development of maintainent?... If the cars aren't so much faster and maintainent still high,..So what all this F1 world champion techno that Ferrari conquer for.....fun???

 

You got your responses, and they were precisely what anyone who's been reading the board for a while should have expected. Buying these things isn't logical, so step up or step back. Filling out your profile is also a nice touch, we kind of like to know who we're talking to around here.

 

I keep writing and erasing, trying to put something into words, what I know some of us feel in our heart. I dont know what to say. I wanted a Ferrari. Its engine parts are scattered in my garage and its thrills me no end. And everytime I look at the car, its just a rush. Nothing else could do that, even if Honda had built it. It just wouldnt be a Ferrari. I would concur as stated previously, that if you want a troublefree car, buy a Camry. If you want car with the greatest heritage, there is only one choice. But I also have seen people have these cars and call them almost bulletproof, so maybe its a matter of how they are driven, and who worked on it last. And with all the cars under 50K miles and the "stories", it would not surprise me that some of these "garage queens" could have a 100-150, perhaps 200K miles on them, and no one any the wiser.

 

I'm not saying "go away" or anything like that. I'm simply stating that buying a Ferrari is not a rational decision, and trying to analyze it too much is wasting time. Either you want one, and are willing to put up with the nonsense to have one (or more) in your garage, or you don't. It's really that simple.

 

...I Agree.


I treat my car as a passionate hobby, and most of the problems I've sorted out on my old 308 have been the result of someone else's poor wrenching/tuning capabilities...and/or lack of use.

Yes, there are some engineering problems with these cars, and these issues weren't particularly well handled by FNA...355 valve guides, manifolds, etc. They can be dealt with however, and the local F-car dealer is not always the best avenue for overpriced solutions.

Some people are capable of breaking an anvil, and some rich folks don't always treat cars with finesse, even if they paid $150-250+K for the damn things. In competent hands, these more "delicate" machines do pretty well...not for the masses that aren't mechanically inclined or don't treat cars with basic care.

True, my 308 is not as well made as my old 914-4 "Poorsche," and both of these cars can rust away if not carefully looked after. But I like these mid-engined antiques...and I deal with their relative shortcomings.

I'm patient and prudent with my $, so I'm saving up for a new Ferrari. Wife likes the 612, I like the F430. While I'm saving, I'm very much enjoying my first F-car. Thankfully my ego's matured though, I don't really care about the blown/NOx Civics, WRX's and the like being able to eat me up. I enjoy the Ferrari mystique, people in the club and watching kids-whose parents weren't born when the car was-give me smiles and thumbs up (okay, a little ego stroke is fun ehh?). The price for this is higher than the norm. I'm okay with that.

 

Reminds me of Economics 101

If one Country has goats and another Country has grapes...... it is better to pursue bi-lateral trade
of wine for cheese, than to try and build a second expertise or industry.

I hate to admit it... but in 2005 Culture still plays a part. Seems odd to my over educated friends.

If I need a robot.... I'm going to a Japanese firm
If I need art..... I'm going to an Italian supplier
If I need my next Star Wars movie or some Rock-n-Roll..... I'm shopping in the USA

100's of year (and even thousands of years) of Culture can be VERY stubborn,.. even though global business trends and communication technology make it hard to believe that ancient culture still plays a huge part in why....maybe a $200,000 Ferrari can't have everything????
(that's my best guess)

What do you think?

 

I think you're on to something Mark, reminds me of my old boss Ozzie Auer, owner of "Ozzie's BMW Center" in Chico, CA...a self proclaimed "kraut." He used to say, "ya can tell a German, but ya can't tell him very much."

Culture is still a huge hurdle, but after touring the Ferrari factory last October, I believe Ferrari is well poised for the future!

 

dude, you only live once, if you have the oppurtunity to buy a ferrari, do it. dont live on other peoples experiences.

in the end, its just metal, not a person.either way its gonna cost you $$$.

 

I have 52,000 miles on my beast. All I have had as a problem is a blown water hose. A MB or BMW would never blow a water hose before 150,000 miles.

Bad Ferrari.

Never drive less than 12 cylinders

Bonzi

 

Pistole...

I'll be back in KL by April 15th...Maybe take a drive down south. Methinks you're from JB..right..If so I don't mind meeting you, a fellow f-chatter..Then we can find a kedai kopi and talk about why we buy these cars in the first place..

You drive a Fiat Coupe...then it shouldn't be too difficult to make you understand. I have always owned Italian cars and bikes. They're not that well built as their German counterparts, then again,it ain't so bad either. They have that special 'something' that's lacking in the teutonic camp, namely style and individuality, IMO.

Talking about reliability, the past three months have been problem free and since now I'm back in China, my brothers get the job of exercising my car every now and then. Granted, the servicing is a mite expensive compared to lesser-mortal cars, but you get what you pay for. I do mine at Next ( warranted ) or for those minor problems, like funny noises from dashboards etc...at 911 Zentrum..they do F-cars too. Rosedie, the owner owns a devilishly fast 348 with 355 bodywork.

I don't have his number with me but the place's at Glenmarie Industrial, near AutoEurokars, the local P-Car official dealer. You can talk to him and hear his views on F-car ownership, costs involved and why so...


Happy hunting.

 

IMO, Ferrari is living off its past, trading on its mystique. Is a used 360 spider worth 3-4 times an equally fast C6 corvette convertible? No.

Yes, Ferrari USED TO make beautiful cars. Ferraris USED TO BE rugged and simple machines designed for nothing more than "sport". There are many who consider the 308/328 series the last of the "true" Ferraris: simple yet beautiful machines, rugged and reliable.

I can't tell you how often the shops in LA/Beverly Hills have Ferrari Maranellos, 360s, etc, with under 3k miles, needing things like computers and sensors swapped! It's truly ludicrous.

Would I spend a $100k on a 246 Dino? $89k on a 512 TR?Yes. Is a 250 Lusso worth $250k? Yes. Would I pay over $200k for a confused looking 430? No. Instead, I'll buy a SLK55, a C6 Corvette convertible, and a 246 Dino and maybe have enough left over for a 308 as well!

IMO, there will be a time when the Ferrari mystique begins to fade. Already there's talk of how the 612 is ungainly. How the Vanquish looks better than the Maranello, and how the Z06 may be faster than the 430. Frankly, I'm curious to see the new Gallardo Spider: A car that's as fast as a 430, built and designed with Audi oversignt (reliablity?) and which costs less than the Ferrari.

One last issue, Ferrari dealers treat you like you're lucky to own one of their cars. In a word, service sucks.

While I own several Ferraris, I'm disappointed with the current state of affairs.

 

I think it's not totally nut to ask for everything when you pay $200,000 for a car. When a $25,000 car can give you better reliability, you are entitle to wonder why a $200,000 car can be the same. I think the technology is there to make their car fast and reliable and Ferrari know it but they need us to keep supporting them through parts and maintainent. For each models they develop, they sell about 10,000 something where as other mass manufacture make and sell 10,000,000 for a similar set up... The only thing is how long we are going to keep paying. It's getting worse. The older the model the more reliable it is....

 

I have the Datsun 280 ZX, 1979.... It's the most reliable car ever. I hardly drive it now. It parks way inside my garage. Sometime it's gone through 6, 7 monthes without starting up engine. But everytime all others I owned die, I can just walk to the 280 ZX start the engine... And it's there for me everytime with engine running.... Never one time of owning it since new that it disappointed me.....it's that good.

 

I agree....these things aren't bulletproof reliable, high-quality nor is their performance so amazing. You can't rationally come to terms with it....but they sell every darn one made and people who buy them evidently feel it's worth it. Ferrari owners LOVE their Ferrari's.

Quality is getting better and ya only live once!

 

Right on Steve ! If I expect it to be a paragon of reliability, I'd buy a Lexus..

 

So, A Ferrari with the Lexus reliability is still a dream...even with space age technology we have today, ha???

 

From a recent Cycle World:

Just data:
Sorry if this has already been done.

*** edited to add ***
Since you mentioned vettes, Cut-n-Paste from:
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75950

Nurburgring lap times:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7m43s --- Lamborghini Murcielago
7m50s --- BMW E46 M3 CSL
7m56s --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale
7m56s --- Porsche 996 Turbo
7m56s --- Chevrolet Corvette Z06 C5
7m56s --- Chevrolet Corvette C6
8m09s --- Ferrari 360 Modena
8m12s --- Porsche 993 Turbo
8m13s --- Dodge Viper SRT-10
8m18s --- Chevrolet Corvette C5
8m24s --- Subaru Impreza WRX STi
8m32s --- Porsche Boxster S
8m38s --- Honda NSX 3.2

6:59 --- Ferrari 312T, Niki Lauda, German GP, training (1975)
7:06 --- Ferrari 312T, Clay Regazzoni, German GP, race (1975) *1.2m longer circuit than standard Nordschleife
6:11 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Stefan Bellof, training (1983)
6:26 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Stefan Bellof, race (1983)
6:41 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Derek Bell
7:50 --- BMW X5 Le Mans V12, Hans Stuck (2001)
*0.232 km longer than current, standard Nordschleife
7:06 --- BMW M3 GTR, 24hrs, test session, Jörg Müller (2003)
7:19 --- Radical SR3 Turbo (2003)
7:20* -- Opel Astra DTM V8 Coupe, set-up for 24hrs race (sport auto 2003) *estimated
7:25 --- Alzen Motorsport Porsche 996, 24hrs race, Uwe Alzen
7:28 --- Porsche Carrera GT, Walther Röhrl, Autobild July 2004
7:32.4 -- Porsche Carrera GT, definitive time by Horst Von Saurma
7:32.5 - Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 EVO, Wolfgang Kaufmann (2001)
7:36 --- Porsche Carrera GT, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (2002)
7:40* -- Porsche Carrera GT, *estimated time on cold and partially wet track (2003)
7:40 --- Mercedes Benz McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig, Autobild July 2004
7:42 --- Radical 1500 SR3 (2002)
7:43 --- TechArt GT Street (2001)
7:43 --- Porsche 996 911 GT3 RS, factory test driver Walter Rohrl, MOTOR Magazine
7:43.5 - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine, 2002)
7:44 --- Pagani Zonda C12S (2003)
7:45 --- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 (2000)
7:46 --- Porsche 996 GT2
7:46 --- SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652 PS (1999)
7:47 --- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, 381PS (996) (2004)
7:49 --- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup
7:50 --- BMW E46 M3 CSL (08/2003)
7:50 --- Blitz Supra, 750 PS, Herbert Schürg (1997)
7:50 --- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne (1993)
7:50 --- Lamborghini Murcielago (06/2002)
7:52 --- Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (1995)
7:52 --- Lamborghini Gallardo E-Gear (12/2003)
7:52 --- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren (06/2004)
7:54 --- Porsche GT3 (996) (2003)
7:55 --- Caterham R500 Superlight (2002)
7:56 --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale (02/2004)
7:56 --- Porsche 996 Turbo
7:56 --- Chevrolet Corvette C6 (tested by Dave Hill)
7:57 --- Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo, 600 PS, racing suspension
7:59 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Performance Chassis) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:02 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Sport PASM setting) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:03 --- Porsche 996 GT3 (1999)
8:04 --- Lamborghini Diablo GT (07/2000)
8:05 --- Ferrari 575M Maranello F1 (12/2002)
8:05 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Normal PASM setting)(Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:06 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG
8:06 --- Caterham 7 Superlight R, Robert Nearn
8:07 --- Ferrari 550 Maranello (06/1998)
8:09 --- Honda NSX-R 3.2 (08/2002)
8:09 --- Ferrari 360 Modena (10/1999)
8:09 --- Lamborghini Diablo SV (no ABS?)
8:10 --- Chrysler Viper GTS, 411PS, UK-Spec, no ABS (10/1997)
8:10 --- Donkervoort D8 180R
8:12 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG (04/2002)
8:12 --- Porsche 993 Turbo
8:13 --- Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS (05/1999)
8:13 --- Dodge Viper SRT-10, 506 PS (10/2004)
8:15 --- Ruf 911 CTR 2, 520 PS
8:15*-- Holden GTS (2000), *estimated
8:15 --- Porsche 911 Carrera 2 (997) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:16 --- AC-Schnitzer E36 M3 CLS II, 350 PS (11/1997)
8:17 --- Aston Martin Vanquish (2003)
8:17 --- Porsche 996 C2
8:18 --- BMW Z8, 400 PS (08/2000)
8:18 --- Chevrolet Corvette Z05 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (09/2003)
8:18 --- Ferrari F355 (06/1997)
8:20 --- Audi RS6 (2002)
8:22 --- BMW E46 M3 (12/2000)
8:22 --- BMW M Coupe, 321 PS (10/1998)
8:22 --- Mercedes-Benz C55 (07/2004)
8:23 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT (2003)
8:23 --- Porsche 996 Carrera 4
8:24 --- Subaru Impreza WRX STi (2004)
8:25 --- Audi RS4 375 HP
8:25 --- Callaway C12
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VI (11/1999)
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VII (11/2002)
8:26 --- Mercedes Benz SLK 32 AMG (05/2001)
8:26 --- Nissan 350Z (2003)
8:28 --- BMW M5, 400 PS(also confirmed by Motor Commodore magazine, 2000)
8:28 --- Nissan Skyline GTR, 277 PS
8:28 --- Porsche 993 Carrera 2
8:29 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 55 AMG (05/2000)
8:29 --- Audi S4 4.2 Avant (11/2003)
8:30 --- Maserati Coupé Cambiocorsa (10/2002)
8:31 --- Ferrari F355 GTS, 380 PS
8:32 --- BMW M Roadster, 321 PS (09/1997)
8:32 --- BMW Z4 3.0 SMG (05/2003)
8:32 --- Porsche Boxster S
8:32 --- Volkswagen Golf R32
8:34 --- Acura NSX, 276 PS
8:34 --- BMW Z3 Coupé 3.0i, 231 PS (04/2001)
8:35 --- BMW M3 Coupe, 321 PS
8:35 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz C V8 Sportcoupé (02/2002)
8:36 --- BMW E36 M3 EVO, 321 PS
8:36 --- Alpina-BMW B3 3.3 Coupé (07/1999)
8:37 --- Maserati 3200GT (2002)
8:37 --- Mercedes Benz C32 AMG (09/2001)
8:37 --- Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec, 350 PS
8:37 --- Subaru Impreza GT Turbo
8:37 --- Honda NSX 3.0 (07/1991)
8:38 --- Honda NSX 3.2 (08/1997)
8:38 --- Mercedes Benz SL500 (12/2001)
8:38 --- Porsche 996 Carrera, 296 PS
8:38 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz CLK 5.8 (12/1998)
8:39 --- Honda S2000 (01/2000)
8:39 --- Morgan Aero 8 (04/2003)
8:40 --- Holden GTS, on an in and out lap (2000)
8:40 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5 Targa Automatic (07/1997)
8:41 --- Aston Martin DB7 (1999)
8:41 --- Audi S3, 210 PS (06/1999)
8:42 --- Audi S4, 265 PS (08/1998)
8:42 --- Lotus Exige (11/2000)
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R (12/2000)
8:44 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5
8:45 --- Chevrolet Corvette, 339 PS, automatic
8:46 --- Porsche 993 Carrera S, 285 PS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R, 200 PS (11/2001)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ferrari's are so much trouble because the proper amount of time isn't put in needed to ensure that they are as perfect as possible. This goes for the factory, the dealers, and owners. The engineering is there, the time needed isn't. As I said this is true across the board.
In reguard to the factory, they put in enough time to get the car production ready, but not production perfect. However lately Ferrari is starting to come around, and are starting to put some more effort into getting it perfect. As someone pointed out earlier, the computer technology is there. With all of the computer simulated programing out there, you can test, and test, and test, and test some more without having to have actually built anything. This is what the Japanese have done, and why they are now the water mark for engineering. They work to get it perfect, not to just get by. Also the factory sells cars so that they can race. Unlike the other manufactures that race to sell cars. So Ferrari spends as little time and money as possible on making the cars, and then sells them for as much as they can get.
Now for the dealers. They are in business to make money. They pay as little as they can for a car, and then sell it for as much as they can. The more they can sell it for the bigger the profit. Chinetti was the guy that gave Ferrari's the image they have hear in the United States. Sell to the rich, famous, and powerful, then the common people will want it. People will think "oh........ big bucks super star so and so drives a Ferrari" BINGO, a Ferrari is now the car to have. Look at the new Chrysler 300C. You know the wannabe Bentley. All the rappers, basketball, and football players are driving them. Now the 300C is the car to have, and be seen in all "blinged" out. But the car is crap. I went to look at one at the dealership, just to see what the big deal was. I found out that there is no big deal at all. The car sucks. But since the rich and famous are driving the car, the common people think it is the car to have. Same deal with Ferrari. But Ferrari has put a huge price tag on the cars, and on the parts. Then when you take the over priced car to the dealer, they over charge you for service. This is so that the factory can make money from the parts, so they can pay for last weekends race, and so the dealer can make a big profit off of the service. Since Ferrari's have the stereotype of a "rich mans" car, they charge rich man prices. Then if you complain you get the line, "Well if you can't afford it then maybe you shouldn't own one". Which is a complete load of crap, because the car really isn't worth the price attached to it, nor are the parts, or service for that matter. The dealers want the car in and out as fast as possible. The faster they get it out the more money they pocket. The more expensive the parts, and service, the more money they can pocket fast. Instead of taking the time to make sure the car is perfect, and sell the customer only what is truely needed, at a reasonable price.
Now for the owners. Joe Blow finally gets the Ferrari he dreamed of for years. But finds out that the dealers are way over charging for service. So he puts off the service until the next time. Well next time rolls around, and puts it off again, because the dealers still haven't lowered their prices. Well something breaks because it was a bad design. So off to the dealer it goes to get fixxed. The dealer fixxes it for the fast big bucks, and the owner dishes out the dough. Now he is soured from the experiance of owning a Ferrari, so he sells it. The next guy gets it with problem C fixxed, but service A & B were never done, yet he was told that they were. So the new owner drives his "new" Ferrari and gets to service D, so he pays for it. Then along comes service E,F,G, & H, which he pays. But he too is tired of getting hammered with the crazy prices the dealers charge, and service (I) is the big one. The car is still under the milage so he sells it. Well the next owner buys it because it was a "low" milage Ferrari, but ignored the fact that major service (I) was over due four years ago, plus service A & B were never even done. So now this guys has something break because service B was over looked. Then later on something else goes bad, because service G was done half assed by the dealer. So now the car needs major service (I), fix what broke because of never done service B & crappy service G. All gets fixxed but the problems haven't finished because service (A), that was never done, is starting to make a new problem, and service H was done by the same idiot that did service G, not to mention the part that was use was a peice of junk to begin with from the factory. So the owner dishes out the money to fix the problems. But it isn't over, his car becomes a gargage queen, which creates brand new problems.

This is why Ferrari's are such a pain in the ass to own.

 

Please for the sake of my eyes use block formatting in the future!

I tend to agree with you though it would seem that Ferraris probably don't get the maintenance they deserve from the collector/poser and snob crowd that buys the car, creating a public image that might not represent a properly maintained car.

 

Toyota spends about $25 MILLION yes MILLION dollars just developing a single panel for a door. A friend of mine that used to work for the american nissan design centre back in the 80's, used to tell me that 15 million was spent on designing a reliable rear hatch back lid.

Ferrari, all be it a great company, simply does not have the investment capital to put in these kinds of dollar numbers into its production lines.

The fact is that all these manufacturers making perfect cars, has only made ferrari FREE of these obligations to be perfect. Thats right, it has SET FERRARI FREE.

Pablo Picasso said "photography has set the artist (painter) free" And he was right. Painting before the camera was the only method to capture an image in life, so all painters strived towards realism. When the camera was invented, there was no need for reproduction, so you had the surrealists, abstract, dada movement and the endless interpretations that art had branched off into.

The same for ferrari. Why try and be perfect when you have camrys for that. Ferrari can now concentrate on delivering automotive sensation in an abstract, enriched way that does not need to correllate to stability or reliability. Its driving art. Its a bloody ferrari, it needs no excuse. Just like a pablo picasso painting does, it lets you see life in a very different way, even if for a mere second.

As a Designer myself, I must say that the beauty of design is in efficiency. It is the duty of manufacturers to strive for efficency, and not for the reason of financial gain, not for reason of customer satisfaction, but for one very important reason. Earth. If ford or toyota were to make parts like ferrari does, we would be at an extreme environmental deficit when it comes to consumer waste. This is why hundreds of millions of dollars are being spent by the manufacturers to ensure that parts can be dismantled and recycled easier, and incorporating the cost of disposal into the cost of the product. Because we cant keep doing this forever. Porsche is doing this, Audi is doing this, volvo is, merc is. However, Ferrari has an interesting take on its ecological sustainability... The mere fact that ferrari's are almost NEVER disposed of makes them a non liability to the environment. The fact that they get driven 5 or 10 k a year makes them low pollutants. The fact that they are culturaly significant artefacts, (ie. 400 years from now they will be in meuseums, while toyota's will be hurled into the sun or sent along with bruce willis to save the earth from a comet headed our way)

However, a ferrari is not a porsche. Whilst a porsche is a definitive testament to german efficiency, they lack that wild stallion, latin passion that you feel when driving a ferrari.

You think japanese, and you think neat and organised sushi box lunches. You think german, and you think tidy little hamburgers and kransky. You think italian, and you think of a sporadically arranged italian pasta dish, cooked with 10 Oz's of passion and 1Oz of tomato sauce. Served by a brunette in a red dress.

Sorry ive rambled on..

Cheers