fixing a 360 | FerrariChat

fixing a 360

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by JohnMH, Mar 15, 2005.

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  1. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    I have a chance to buy a crashed 360 (front end accident) for cheap.

    The car can be a parts car or a canidate for a repair.

    Aside from parts prices (which are obviously a major factor) I have a few questions about the aluminium frame on a 360, namely is there a front subframe which can be replaced, or is it a case of requiring a new chassis if the damage goes beyond the sheetmetal.

    I have heard of some authorized dealers specializing in 360 repairs, but have no clue what they do with the frames.

    Any light (exploded diagrams, etc) which can be shed on the issue would be helpful.

    Thanks to all.
     
  2. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 3, 2003
    3,806
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Brian
    There is a reason for wrecks being cheap. Front ends are a premium on these cars, try finding any used! As a parts car you can make money breaking it, but takes time to retrieve the money.

    Brian
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    The chassis is made up of a bunch of components that can be bought individually. In this country they are only sold to and for the use of authorized body shops so getting those parts has proven to be near impossible. The parts books are on secure CD's and are read only and only if you have the dongle that goes with them.
     
  4. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    So the entire portion of the frame in front of the front passenger compartment bulkhead can be unbolted and removed? So if I found, say, a rear ended written off car I could unbolt the components which make up the front assembly and play mix n' match?

    I have seen CD roms of parts books on Ebay, I guess somebody got the key to decoding the information.

    As I am not in North America, maybe my chances of buying some individual chassis parts may be a little better.

    Thanks.
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    No bolts.Get out the sawzall and tig welder.
     
  6. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 3, 2003
    3,806
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Brian
    Whatever you can SEE, the damage goes further. As I said, people have accidents and 90% are front end wrecks, parts are very difficult to come by. Then the monocoque structure needs careful jigging and welding, really unlikely to be a DIY, and too costly for professional repair. (Unlees you want a half a$$ed 360 to drive around)
     
  7. Bertocchi

    Bertocchi Formula 3
    Consultant

    Jan 28, 2004
    2,176
    Austin, Texas
    Full Name:
    David Castelhano
    360s have an all aluminum monocoque. The chassis must be set in a welding fixture to insure that all the "points in space" are correct. Also aluminum distorts with heat (welding) and must be properly secured to a factory style frame jig when new components are added. Classic Coach had the only such machine for many years but I believe that others have them now and they all charge dearly for their work. You also end up with a salvage title in the end which becomes a huge problem if you ever decide to sell the car. Good luck!
     
  8. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    So ths is a weld, not bolt process. That makes things a lot more difficult as you would need a jig to hold everything straight in 3 dimensions and know how to weld the specific type of alloy which ferrari uses. OK, not a shade tree procedure.

    I am rethinking the entire process based upon your suggestions, but curiosity is getting the better of me here. One friend suggests that for the price I just buy it and put the drivetrain into my living room and the seats in front of my TV. Mind you, the guy has a disassembled Dino in his basement which has sat there for the better part of a decade so maybe I should be careful with his advice.

    It is not the price of the car which worries me, it is the length of this paticular slippery slope if I decide to fix it. As for salvage title, I am less concerned if the price is right, let my hypothetical children worry about it as long as it has been put together correctly.

    Or, to put it another way, what is the going rate for a complete, running back half of a euro spec 360 f1?

    Frankly, finding a 360 with an engine fire or some serious yet fixable rear end damage is a better bet. Will a fire warp the alloy in the frame to the point of rendering it useless?

    I know of one seriously burned daytona currently going through the restoration process, it will take years and money, but it ought to be as good as an unburned example afterwards and you get the added satisfaction of rescuing something which would have gone to be parted out otherwise.

    I guess I just feel sorry for this 360.





    Cheers,

    John
     
  9. dbcooper

    dbcooper Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2005
    281
    Costa Mesa,Ca.
    Full Name:
    Tim Romero
    Dont feel sorry for the 360.Feel sorry for yourself and runaway as fast as your feet will carry you!.You will be buying someone else's mistake and make it your own.I know its easy to dream,but its much more difficult(and expensive) to make it happen. Run away! dont look back!
     
  10. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    I'm working with a customer on several front end body panels for a 360. Parts are available, but they're quite expensive. Most come from Italy, as FNA doesn't stock everything. I'm helping him with bumper, front fender, hood, headlamp, etc.

    Budget 2K per "piece" and you're probably in the ball-park. Some are a little less, some are a lot more. I have not quoted rear quarters, and I suspect they're the most expensive items on the car (baring a complete door assembly, of course)

    Even for a 150K car, it's clear that the individual cost of the parts (as replacments) FAR exceeds the market value of the complete car. Heck, even a Kia is no different.

    -Daniel
     
  11. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    Buying more than 5% of the required parts to fix it from the dealer puts it in the cost prohibitive range. The chances of finding a perfect 360 from the firewall forward is probably pretty slim. As the car is not going anywhere, I will keep my eyes open but my wallet in trousers.

    If anyone knows of a good front end donor canidate, please email me.
     
  12. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    The best advice has been already given – run – there is no gain in this scenario

    As said before the 360 has an aluminum body that is welded together out of extruded parts. You have to cut out complete sections and weld in the F replacement parts because of the characteristics of the material. The body can not be pulled or only a very limited amount. I am even not sure if you can cut a front-section from another car and weld it on – seems to me a loosing proposition.

    Next in line are the panels that make up the outer shell – the aluminum is so brittle that it is a nightmare to get it straight – if you would use the normal steel methods if would simply pop in or out at other places – so you have to heat-treat it until dents disappear (in multiple stages)

    I have the body repair manual and it is a nightmare to fix the body besides that you have to have a completely separate toolset that has never been used on steel for contamination reasons – you also have to be able to weld aluminum that is thin and brittle

    I don’t see your normal chop-shop working at the car – that will be a good laugh

    Next in line is painting the car – if you look at it closely the lines are such that in most cases you have to paint an entire side or front/back section - most of the metailc colors are very hard to blend – to do teh painting right you would have to take some of the windows out, which because how they are mounted would mean new ones

    I believe I read on FChat that a front-section repair of a 360 Challenge goes for around $40k+ but might remember wrong

    Selling the parts or especially the engine is also a pipe dream for me – who would buy and engine or F1 system that only the dealer can maintain properly
     
  13. russell

    russell Karting

    Mar 2, 2005
    217
    sacramento
    Full Name:
    russell
    john, any photos to get an idea of damage.. The 360 challenge race cars get hit often (racing) and constantly repaired. I know several people in the u.s. and europe that run the series. They are working on 2-5 cars a week in some instances resolving issues as you described. As far as a salvaged title i have 2 cars with that and it depens on the level of damage (safety) and money in to fix to determine real value. my 360 spider was salvaged title but 100k versus 175k or so to me is justified. my point is i dont think every car depending on circumstance should be thrown out or scrapped if once had an issue? As i am fortunate to be able to afford a no story car i choose to find a way as you abviously are to spend less.. I will post a photo of the 360 and it is salvaged but an example that it shoulnt be thrown out or parted.. JUST my opinion.. i believe if it can be saved or fixed why not.
     
  14. sparetireless

    sparetireless Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,529
    .............I believe I read on FChat that a front-section repair of a 360 Challenge goes for around $40k+ but might remember wrong
    >>>>>>>> Try $60-70 for minor damage.
     
  15. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
    17,564
    Savannah
    since you are in Dubai ,contact the local office for some of the offshore oil rig companies . they have welders that can weld aluminum. if there are any large ship or aircraft repair facilities, there may be people that do side work that can help you. making a jig to pin and or weld the car into is not a big deal. the dirt track racers here weld up whole race car chasis from tubes and build a car around it. then they use the same jug to repair the car during the racing season as it gets wrecked.

    yes, i know a 360 is a nice and complicated car. but if you get one that is not mashed too hard in the front, this should be some thing you can have repaired, and perhaps look for another to do and resell later. if it is built by man , it can be repaired by man.
     
  16. 9software

    9software Karting

    Mar 31, 2004
    59
    Hampton Roads, VA
    Full Name:
    Shawn
    Someone had a 360 frame for sale on ebay...they already sold the engine and other pieces.
     
  17. thxenzo

    thxenzo Rookie

    Jan 17, 2009
    43
    Illinois
    Full Name:
    name
    #17 thxenzo, Oct 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    See my post , A Question?

    Not an impossible task. Not a task to make a quick buck. Can be done, as I have done it.

    I have a Modena that I can drive every time I have the need, so the thrill of when am I going to get this car done and drive it is not a factor. I can wait on parts until the price is right. Ebay is a good source.

    Very important to note that if you are in a hurry to fix the car it WILL put a dent in your finances you. Perhaps a complete car would serve you better.

    So if you are doing this for fun (as in my case) go for it. You will be rewarded especially if you are a ferrari nut.

    But, If you think that you can get this done cheaply... Forget it! Buy a car that you can drive immediately.

    The effort required here is equal to the effort to set up a small business, perhaps just as much money... just an idea.
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