How about this... There's some more track days happening out here. Phillip Island (Melbourne) is best to demonstrate this kit, but also Eastern Creek (Sydney). Why don't you sort out a potential US buyer, and send him here, and arrange for Ton's car to be at the track days. Ton's car is ok for track work as it is, of course it could be improved, but it is fine for now. Check the Aussie section for track days.....
Know that the test car is running around at 13 psi, I don't understand why anyone would be worried at all about 6 psi stage one kit. It's clearly no where near the limit of anything. That said, my supercharged 308 that hits 20+ psi is making 420rwhp, 50 less than the stage 1 kit, and in my opinion is scary fast. The first setup I had on it made 304rwhp, very close to a stock 355 and it was fun to drive. There is simply no comparison between 304 and 420 rwhp, the car went from fast to scary fast. 308s are geared lower than a 355, but just rolling on the throttle in first or second gear starts the tires spinning. A hard shift into 3rd on the highway at 65mph starts the tires spinning. It's fast. The only think I've been able to break is the clutch, which was fragile even with the stock engine. I installed a triple disc carbon-carbon clutch for $3500 that has a much softer pedal than stock and will handle something like 800+ ft-lbs torque. It's much nicer to drive in traffic with the soft pedal and seems to be holding up fine, I haven't even had to adjust it despite the abuse I give it. I just can't imagine how anyone could be disappointed with a kit like this.
The 6psi kit is made for those who perhaps do not want such as blinding fast car. It is a mild boost level that increases the oh-so-needed torque and top end horsepower. With the 6psi kit, your car will be making approx 470whp (based off elevation, etc.), which puts the car in the horsepower ranges of the 06 Z06, above F430's, pretty much every car except those heavily modified.
I've got a turbo'd Miata and am heavily involved in the Miata community, but I come here from time-to-time to get my Ferrari fix Just thought I'd throw this in as a point of reference, but one of our most esteemed aftermarket Miata developers/vendors, BR Performance (wrote the book on positive-displacement supercharger kits for our cars), warranties the car's engine and transmission for 5 years, if the supercharger kit is installed by BRP or a licensed affiliate. Obviously our cars cost quite a bit less to repair (a new crate engine can be had for ~$1,750) than a Ferrari, and the most expensive turbo or supercharger kit sold for the Miata is only around $6,000, so it's a different league. I just thought it was an interesting point nonetheless. BTW, these supercharger kits can produce up to 270rwhp (that's at the rear wheels, meaning the little 1.8L four is churning out around 330 flywheel horsepower if you take into account drivetrain losses and parasitic drag from the 'charger). I think they only warranty them up to the ~200rwhp level, though, but that's still about double the stock horsepower of the Miata. Here's there site if you want to take a look: http://www.brperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?
If we could offer on-site install with Technicians from Nizpro flying over to install at your home, would this be more of an incentive? If so, I can bring this to Nizpro to see if this would be a viable option.
We know the interest in this issue has pretty much waned. But if a US manufacturer was to offer a TT kit for the F355, which includes shipping the car to them (in Oregon), fabrication, testing, tuning, and return shipping, would you be interested in this? Warranty wise, the craftmanship and materials have a lifetime warranty. A certified Ferrari mechanic can inspect the engine both prior to and after boost (not included) to ensure proper operation and that the engine is running smoothly and without issues. Engine management wise, the AEM EMS would be used with a custom harness. Capability wise, the AEM EMS is a preferred engine management system, with Max Rev currently running that in their Supra drag car which just ran a 9.29 @ 152mph at 35psi off the nitrous. But the motor has been tuned with the EMS for 55psi, which generated 1650. The AEM EMS is a reliable system, and well suited for the task.
I will vouch for the AEM EMS, I sell at least 5 of them a month and all my customers love them. However there is not much demand for twin turbo'ing F355's or any Ferrari in general. Forza, Kevin
I realize that there is a low demand for the application in general. But tastes do vary in people's demand for automotive performance.
John, I think the low demand has a bit to do with the high prices. When you consider the Miata kits are 6000 tops for half a V8, then anything over 15K seems outrageous for a V8 Ferrari. That even allows an extra 3K to cover the lower volume such a product would see. It is not as if the development work hasn't been done many times by various people out there, so dev costs should not be astronomical. So, if you could TT a V8 Ferrari for 15K, I think you'd find customers. At 50K plus, it is just money down the toilet, as you NEVER get a cent of that back should you want to sell the car. A TT setup for a 308 at 10-12K for a basic setup would generate a lot of interest - just look at the 4 liter V8 thread - a project that is essentailly dead in the water due to the astronomical costs. This is not to say that some of the products developed as part of that project won't be popular (ie the water pump). Just my .02 worth, Dave
If you guys really think there is demand I can put together a kit for less then $15k. My guys have been fabricating kits for different applciations including the Nissan 350Z, N/A Toyota Supra. I've sold around 90 of our kits to date and never had problem with one cracking, breaking, etc. I allways get questions when customers are installing of course but that is easy to get out of the way. So if there is demand I'll start a thread. Just let me know. For any Ferrari, F355, 308, whatever works with me. Forza, Kevin
It's hard enough to find someone willing to toss $12k in to a $25k car (for example, serious turbo work on an Audi S4). Finding someone willing to toss $36k in to a $70k car isn't going to be any easier. With your kit, even the cheap one, you're talking about potentially spending more than half of what the car is worth. Except for someone who thinks of his 355 as a neat but disposable toy, the kit is priced far far outside the range of what is considered even vaguely reasonable. At the current price point, your potential market is a tiny percentage (355 as a toy) of a small percentage (willing to modify a 355) of a niche market (355 owners in general). Honestly, at $36k for the kit, I think you'd have much better luck selling empty cardboard boxes on eBay.
If I could get this kit made and sold for $5-10K, believe me, I would. I do not set the prices on these items, but talk with a manufacturer and he sets a price. Most of his kits start at $25K and can go up to $100K, doing everything from a simple single turbo setup to a full roll cage interior, motor build, and twin turbos running massive amounts of boost.
John from this manufacturer yes. But you can put your own kit into production for $10-15k. All you need is a fabrcator that is knowledgable. Forza, Kevin
Then I will have to see what I can come up with. for those interested in custom kits, please pm me. We are researching best potential power producer, and the best powerband. Some have said the F355 needs a better low end, so if that is the consensus, please let me know and I will see if we can get something fabricated up.
Folks, With the high compression that the 355 has, a "cheap" kit would aim for approximately 6 pounds of boost across as wide a rev range as possible. This would mean no piston changes required, and give the all important increase in low end. The kit would need to include an EMS of some description (works out cheaper than stuffing around with the OEM Bosch stuff). There is plenty of room either side of the engine to fit the turbos and plumbing. The biggest "problem" would be where to locate intercooler(s). As for 308s and 328s, then these engines are begging for turbos. Low compression pistons are already installed! The key here is to run EMS and not waste time trying to get the mechanical FI (or worse still, carbs) to be happy with the positive pressures. This of course adds to the cost, but for an owner wanting to cut costs, many second hand parts can be used. There should be no reason not to use young injectors salvaged from a wrecked Japanese car. Likewise the various sensors. The reason most Ferrari turbo installations end up expensive is because everything is customised. It seems that everyone who does such an installation starts from scratch. Maybe there would be a market for the components, rather than complete kits? How about EFI manifolds for 308 and 328 engines? I don't recall ever seeing these available, but if they were, then they would be attractive to folks wanting to go forced induction, or just simply go EFI for the performance and economy benefits. Even a kit to convert an OEM CIS manifold to EFI? Could someone offer these as an exchange type service? Anyway, enough ranting and launching of ideas..... Dave
6psi, as far as intercooling, should not matter. A good and properly sized turbo with adiabatic efficency does not require intercooling until the 7-8psi mark. And blowers also do not require intercooling until the 11psi mark (approx, depending on application), becuase there is no heat addition from the exhaust, which the turbo is subjected to. I have been doing some calculations as far as horsepower/fuel ratio's, and at a minimum, the F355 has 310cc injectors, should Ferrari follow the 80% injector duty cycle rule. Those injectors would support up to 470HP at a 100% duty cycle, which by no means is desireable, and if the 6psi generates an additional 100HP(very attainable), larger or additional injector(s) would be required. And with piston change, the TT tester car is still running with no failures at 13psi, still making the 600whp. So to say that 6psi or higher requires a piston change is incorrect. And for those that want a better increase of low end, positive displacement supercharger would be required, which would provide almost off-idle maximum boost (depending on the sizing, pulley, etc) but no more than 2000rpm. Positive displacement blowers are the least adiabatic efficient of all superchargers, but usually better than most turbo's.
John, The 6psi with std pistons was ballpark, but very conservative. There are so many variables, the only way to find out is to try it.... but aiming for something conservative is always a safe bet IMHO. Conservatism is another reason I would "like" intercoolers, even if they are not strictly required. I am sure that one could get 1000+ hp out of a 355, but for how long and at what cost????? That is not the type of upgrade I would ever be interested in. I think a 355 with just an extra 100hp would be a completely different car, especially if there was a substantial midrange increase. It would really be amazing.... Dave
Conservative is the way to go, unless the customer wants a really powerful motor, such in the case of the TT kit running 13psi. As far as the 100HP increase time wise, it would be a permanent increase, nothing temporary. Once the system is tuned at that point, it will not change unless purposely done so. Cost, it has been posted previously. But there are other options, which I am exploring at this time.
The comment above that the 4-liter engine project is dead in the water is patently false. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. The author of such claims has neither any association with the 4-Liter project nor any personal knowledge of the number of order that have been placed to date. In addition, this party has not be provided a copy of our business plan. The 4-liter project is alive and very well. The costs are not astronomical as evidenced by the number of orders and general interest. There is currently far more demand than production capacity for this engine package. Inquires are being fielded daily. This package comes in various flavors: 2V-4.1 liters, 4V-4.1 liters, 2V-3.5 liters, 4V-3.5 liters, and blown 2V/4V-liters. The issue of affordable is primarily a function of an individuals disposable income. Those that have expressed concerns regarding the cost generally cant afford a 4-liter engine. Those that can are calling in substantial numbers to get in line have are not concerned with cost but rather timing. For correct information regarding this effort, please call Nick Scianna. Sincerely, Mark Lewis
Mark, I knew you'd bite But anyway, is there a 4 liter 308 running yet? The project is producing some excellent replacement parts (eg water pump), but has not (to my knowledge) produced a running 4 liter engine. I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong. The theories expounded in the 4 liter thread are generally solid, but theory counts for very little in the long run. Just ask Phil Can you provide a firm price for a crate or exchange 4 litre? I suspect a 355 engine transplant into a 308 would be around the same magnitude, and that turbo or super charging a 308 would be much cheaper. The 4 liter project is, for all intents and purposes, dead in the water until it produces running engines and sales. Just like the 355TT, which is also dead in the water until it achieves some sales - it at least runs (and very well!). I know you will disagree with most of this, but that's the beauty of this forum - we don't have to agree. I respect your drive and enthusiasm on this project, but until we see real results, I'll spend my money on other things. Dave
Dave- I have a 246 customer that contacted me about a manifold for EFI conversions. We are going to see what we can do about his car. If the demand is there I'd love to see what we could do about 308 cars for EFI. Also I'd personally never recommend any turbo kit install without an intercooler, while it may not be a necessity it's very good insurance. For mounting ideas look at Koenig's kit or the kit FIAutosports is currently selling. Forza, Kevin
Kevin, there are different types of F.I. other than the turbo. Intercooling, while not required until 7-8psi because the air can no longer be compressed, is recommended over 5psi because your charge air is heated and some type of intercooling is preferred. Be that methanol/water injection, nitrous, or bar and plate intercooler, it does not matter.
Ok, I bit. Several engine assemblies are waiting custom head gaskets. They will be finished and dynod within a matter of weeks of receipt of the gaskets. As has been previously mentioned the large bore is possible because Multi Layer Steel gaskets. Stock sizes for the 308, 328 and other late model V8 Ferrari engine gaskets are coming too. Our gaskets have been delayed because race teams have priority. I have been told that they should be here within 30 days. It looks like the 2V-3.5 liter will be the first engine dynod. A major amount of time has been spent sorting out production issues regarding water pumps, dampeners, radiators, and fans. There have been more growing pains than originally anticipated. Problems are not associated with quality control but rather production scheduling. We are working on cam pulleys and belts, a new front cover, carbon clutch, dry sump, and super chargers. This doesnt included a rebodied kit for the 308 which is an animal all unto itself. The new functional rear end includes a rear air diffuser, which is seriously cool. Stock short blocks are being prepared for clients. Based on what I see, we are anything but dead on arrival. Despite yours and my impatience we are not going to rush an untested product to market. Dead? No. Coming? Yes. I am sorry if I stole this thread. Sincerely, Mark Lewis
Guys... There is a much cheaper way to gain 200hp and it's simple: Hyper-flow Air Filter Upgraded exhaust system Ultra-quad spark plugs Mega-octane boost gas additive Mega-lube oil additive Meguire's slick-skin wax finish 500-watt stereo with window-pounder bass EfFeCtS Super-deep ultra forest mega-musk air freshner Power-stroke spark plug wires Complete super-sticker decal set neon-glow underbody illumination licorice dispenser (red & black) Reebok racing slippers, red with velcro straps Hercules racing gloves, black-mesh Rainex windshield wipers ..and a picture of Eric Estrada riding his bike stuck in your rear-view mirror NOW we're talking power!!!!! Act now and we'll throw in a set of ginsu cutting knives... ....and that's just STAGE 1 Stage 2 contains:
