V12 engine rebuild bill?

This link http://www.roelofsparts.com/ from a post by Tom Yang on his site.

 

thank you Arlie!

 

Great thread.

On a twist:

In what kind of shape is a typical UNrebuilt 40 year old Ferrari V12 in terms of compression, rings, valves, smoking etc? Do they all need a rebuild at some point?

Given the extreme cost of a rebuild, when do you decide an engine needs rebuilt? It would seem to me that driving a car with an engine that is a little tired is better than rebuilding it.

 

In the 60's and 70's when we were still stuck with using the old Ferrari parts doing a top end on a 250, 275, 330(valves, guides, pistons, rings, liners, rebuild the entire valve train) at 25k miles was considered normal. It wasn't until the 365 that they started to last. Thats one of the reasons so many of those early motors have so many parts to fix now. With the modern high quality parts available now the motors last much longer and with as little as most of those cars are driven a good motor overhaul now will probably last the rest of the cars life.

As to when to decide I have done several just because the owner was embarassed to drive a multiple hundred thousand dollar car that smoked like an old Vega. When you consider the value of the cars the motor overhaul price is not out of line and as said before adjusted for inflation it has gotten much cheaper over time. A Ferrari does not cost a hundred or more thousand dollars because it is built from a pile of $20 parts. It is in fact built from a bunch of very much more expensive parts that don't fit together very well and takes great care and patience to make it work well and run correctly. And don't forget a 250 Pininfarina Coupe motor costs just as much to rebuild as a 250 GTO.

Come to think of it knowing very well how much work it is to do one I think 25-35k is a bargain and I don't regret not doing them anymore.


BTW I was in your neighborhood over Easter up in Round Hill. Prety country, just wish the weather was a little better.

 

Wayne,

What made you decide to rebuild rather than repair?

By the way, once the engine becomes stronger, you will soon discover if you have any other weaknesses in your drivetrain - I did.

Regards,

Art S.

 

I've enjoyed reading this thread. I have often been tempted to bite on an earlier car (a 330 or c4 say). I've worried that a rebuild will be on the menu at some point of my ownership (I'm not a seller). I've asked of my mechanic (who I count as one of the handful you all cite as capable of doing a complete rebuild) whether the rebuild, if prospectively needed, would also produce useful power gains, given the prospect of stronger modern materials (pistons, rods, etc.). His answer was no. You can't really gain much from a rebuild on an older V12. Do other agree?

 

Ouch! Sorry to hear Wayne.

I hope it doesn't dampen your spirits too much. I'm sure it will be a blast when the engine is fresh. How fresh is the rest of the drivetrain?

Art S.

 

David,

If the engine is worn, the engine's ability to hold a compressed charge is reduced. This results in lower power output (note, this is an oversimplification). When you rebuild an engine to stock specs, you will gain power, not much more than intended but substantially more than the engine was making prior to rebuild.

Art S.

 

Unless you change the tuning specs (compression, cam grind ) no. You will just have a motor that puts out the power it should and will last longer if the proper component suppliers are chosen.

 

Rifledriver,

Winchester is a great place and has wonderful driving roads. Some are great for the 328 (twisties) and others for the 330 (long sweepers).

My engine makes good power and doesnt smoke, and although it may not be as good as new, it sounds like a rebuild isnt neccessary until something becomes intolerable. Its never been rebuilt.

Dan

 

michael (carreaper),

i have a friend that possess similar skill sets as you and i must say, i am always thinking that he is the perfect vintage ferrari owner. w/ a factory book and your tools...and your ability to make your own speciality tools...well, i just get jealous. boxer ownership will be a breeze for you and quite frankly w/ the exception of the expensive parts...you will be the perfect boxer owner.

go get a bad azz boxer and when you figure it out (in no time!) you can coach me!!!

your boxer bud,

pcb

 

why thanks, i REALLY need to come up there and vist. my grandfather has been in poor health and i have my house all taken aprt doing some rennovations. and i work on airplanes all day.....

seems a underlying commonality in the comments is that the engines are "unique" and less " mass produced" as regular engines and parts. fine fitting parts is critical in race and drag engines, the tolerances depend on the application, ie a loose engine with a supercharger, a tight engine for power / no add ons ect. from what i have been able to find on google, some of the ferrari parts can me made new ( like Horsefly's link shows) and some of the stuff is rare, rare and super expensive.

we really need to find a way to save these cars. i know folks of means dont sweat the small stuff money wise, but "we" should not allow all of the cars to vanish. save them i say

 

WOW! Excellent fabricator!
Even down to the cylinder head? That must've cost a fortune

 

I remember reading an article about a shop that uses massive CNC milling machines and very high tech computers controlling them to mill engine blocks and such from billet.

They were producing brand new Maserati 250F engine blocks, cylinder heads and cranks. The complete cost for these basics for a "new" engine was about $100K. They said most of the big boys vintage racing a 250F or a 300S were now using these reproduction engines. They give more power, are more reliable and most importantly if they blow up a priceless matching numbers original engine is not destroyed.

So, if you have the $$$.... ANY engine can be recreated!



Terry

 

If people are racing with replica engines that never saw the factory (and could replica transmissions or differentials be far behind?), why not just race full replicas and not have to worry about any aspect of the original car?

John

 

I agree.... why not?

As I have said before, the hands down absolute best and most fun race I saw all of last year was the the televised Speed channel coverage of the Goodwood Revival.

F1, FIA Sportscar WC, LeMans GT, ALMS, SCCA, NASCAR.... none of these had racing that was as exciting to watch nor as closely fought as the Goodwood Revival.

Those guys flogging the crap out of Cobra Daytona coupes, E-Type Jags, Aston DB4GT's, Bizzarininis, Ferrari 250SWB's, 250GTO;s, 330LMB's and all the other vintage hardware were AMAZING!

Watching those cars with big HP and skinny tires sliding all over the track, passing back and forth, going side by side at 130mph in full 4 wheel drifts as the drivers pushed to 10/10ths and beyond in an effort to win.... it was without doubt the best RACING I saw all of last year and I can say the same about the year before.

Some folks scream about the dangers or such close racing in such valuable and irreplaceable cars. They claim that "racing" such cars should not be actual racing..... whatever.

But if they could have such races using EXACT replicas.... then everyone would be happy. We could have the amazing close racing in cars that place a maximum on the drivers and are a hoot to watch AND we would not be endangering the historic hardware.

If such a series existed, not only would I watch it, I would buy such a car and race it!


Terry

 

Not only is there CNC machines that cut, there are stereo lithography machines that lay down molds. It's far cheaper if you're doing more than one engine.

Water passages and other hidden dimensions make block recreation a lot harder than you would think, even with today's technology.

 

Then, the next step would be to volume build exact-replica vintage cars for road use, but the feds wouldn't let us have them.

 

Not a problem. Just purchase a rotted out '65 VW bug complete with title for $100, transfer over one of the switches or something, then title your new Ferrari 250GTO replica as the '65 VW. Presto.... grandfathered in and legal good to go!

Guys are importing and selling the new Superformance Cobra Daytona coupes and doing some sort of title gimmick to make it all street legal so there would be a way.



Terry

 

You wouldn't have to buy a bug, just get one of Tom S.'s rollers and use the title, keep the roller as a wall hanging.

Art S.

 

Kit cars are exempt from all kinds of things. Look at the Nobel. They ship the body and chassies and you stick 'em together. Presto! A $75k supercar that otherwise would be illegal in 50 states!

Ken

 

well this is where I stand with my 330 rebuild....
headwork--new valves, seats, rocker arm rebuild, line boring and fitting VW bearings on cams, new titanium rollers, +++ 5-6k
new cam grind 1200
block/crank honing-300
new 10.0 pistons 1200 ( have a set of new venolias too that i am trashing--600) make that 1800 total.
New carillo rods 800
rod and crank bearings 3-500
new studs, nuts, washers---400
block decking, cylinder out-in, cyl honing--800 to 1200

assembly and reassembly time----100 hours????

basically looking at about 4-6 k in parts and 10-14k in associated labor for the various work.

Oh--and the danmed 5k in legal bills from sueing a thief/mechanic that screwed the heads completely...

 

I wish I could say I am going to add my 2c, but my recent rebuild has cost over 35k. I still don't have the car back, though it is running. There was a fair amount of machine work that needed done, and some misc. work to other parts of the car. My car had 67k miles on it and it ran strong but was smoking and it was a little embarassing to drive. So I pulled the engine out myself and took it to a local specialist. I didn't realize I was opening up a can of worms. I plan on keeping and enjoying the car for several more years but if I realized then what the final cost would be and how long it would take, I would have sold the car as is and bought another.