The Ed Gault improved timing belt upgrade: any long term users?

When I first joined FChat a couple of years ago there was an FChatter, Herbert Edward Gault frpm Gaffney, SC (since left), selling a belt upgrade kit to a thicker, heavier rounded tooth belt that came with belt and sprockets, much like the long life Honda system. The idea was a MUCH longer change interval (100K miles) and less distortion. He was not able to generate enough initial paying interest for a 4valve engine, and kits were only made for the 2 valve before he left.

I would love to hear from any FChatters that used this system over the past couple of years and how things are going so far.

I remember him to becoming disenchanted from some of the negative posts and leaving, which was our loss, of course. Here's the link and initial post, you can decide for yourself - the entire thread makes for a fascinating read, especially in light of the 4.0 thread on product development on FChat:

http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/...56120/2273.html

Actually, if I were to adapt and purchase anything from the 3.3/4.0 thing, it would be a ruggedized long life belt system.

best
rt

 

Russ
We could probably find him. I'd be interested in a set at that kind of price, so that makes 2 of us. I wonder what he did about tensioners and where he got the stuff made.
Philip

 

Three of us

 

He sold his 308 and for some reason felt that he should not maintain a relationship with this site without it. I tried to email him after he left a few years back but got no response. He was difficult at times but I liked his posts.

 

Count me in for a 4v car. Perhaps a group buy might motivate him to do it?

Thanks for the great info.

Paul

 

If Ed is willing to provide his design, I have access to a machinist and we can probably get the rest done. I sent an email to his Bellsouth address.
Philip

 

He sold his F car, bought a Corvette and just left the fchat. I miss his technical expertise. We all need to lighten up at times.

 

Yes I remember he knew a lot about Ferrari's if I remember he sold his ferrari and left because parts were getting to costly he thought.

 

We will have a new timing belt system available shortly. It will use a new style belt with all new pulleys with cam degree marks & new tensioner bearings. There will be an optional front timing cover with a new bigger bearing design also. (Keep in mind that the lower drive bearings are also a problem) That was one of my comments years ago to Ed when I talked to him on the telephone when he was working on it. (I believe I even brought it up on F chat when that thread was happening). The package we will offer should be good for 60,000 miles SAFELY with the new lower cover & bearings.

The 4-liter engine, with the machined block for the bigger inner bearings & new front cover design should be good for 90,000 miles. I also miss Ed Gualt even though we had some disagreements.

If there is enough interest in a package for 308 owners I can talk to Steve & see if we can speed up that upgrade for Fellow F chatters!

Here is a picture of Ed's set up that he made up a few years back.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I too am very interested in hearing about long-term experience with his system.

I continue to be interested in this system & recently contacted Ed about it.

Ed doesn't seem to be interested in sharing his design tho. A few weeks ago I sent him eMAIL asking if he'd share his design with me as I wanted to make one for my car. (I couldn't quite come up with enough $$ to buy Ed's last system, but haven't given up on the idea.)

Attached is the extent of our correspondence. I haven't received a reply to his response. I hope he doesn't mind my sharing our correspondence.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: your 308 cam belt system design
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:07:34 -0500
From: Verell Boaen <[email protected]>
To: Edward Gault <[email protected]>

Hmm,
Sounds challenging, but doable.

I have access to a CNC mill that can cut just about any profile. Also have access to a 50 ton press, that could probably do the crimping.

However, I've found that there's usually other alternatives for mating two pieces of metal than crimping/swageing. The alternatives usually cost more labor or machining time tho.

I would still be interested in taking a good look at the drawings to see what was involved.

Is there a phone # & convenient time that I could call you to pursue this further?

Interestedly,
Verell
------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward Gault wrote:
>
> To produce only one set of pulleys would be cost prohibitive due to the
> guides for the sides of the pulleys that have to be purchased in quantity.
> Unless you have a access to a milling machine with special cutters designed
> for the function of cutting the teeth and a 100 ton press to press and crimp
> the guides on then it will be impossible to reproduce the product I offered.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Cc: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 1:42 PM
> Subject: your 308 cam belt system design
>
> > Ed,
> > Would it be possible to get a copy of the drawings, etc. for the 308 cam
> > drive system you developed?
> >
> > I'm thinking I may want to try making a set up & trying it.
> >
> > Inquiringly,
> > Verell
> >
> >
> >
"

 

Ed didn't have access to a 4V car to check his kit against. He knew that the 4V engines used a slightly different system (metal cam gears, different belt p/n).

However, I'm convinced that his kit would work on a 4V system, or at most might require a change to the tensioner diameter. Would have put my $ down on it if I'd had the extra $1000 back then.

I have a very early Euro QV & it came with the plastic cams! I also bought a set of 2V cam gears along with some other stuff on eBAY from one Ed Gault. We were both surprised to discover who the other party to the transaction was! Those 2V gears were the ones he replaced with the new system on his car, AND are IDENTICAL TO MY 4V CAM GEARS.

 

To me, this appears as a thing of beauty. If there is any one common thread that V-8 Ferrari owners share, it is the timing belt issue.

The timing is good for me this summer with the cam change. Dang.
Will bounce it off of Norwood's, who has my car, to see just how expensive a mod with the Gates T-212 belt +3 sprockets + tensioner roller would be for a qv; will presumptively also suppose a group buy of 5 qv units. If Nick or Verell can come up with something cost effective in a month or so, that would be even better.

Not holding my breath, but worth asking as this seems to be THE one obvious and MOST cost effective 308/328 upgrade ever. Increases reliability, accuracy of timing due to less stretching and reduces long term cost through fewer replacements. And can be done at the next routine belt change.

best
rt

 

Does anyone have any data that indicates that these belts stretch significantly?

I'm NOT convinced that these belts stretch enough to affect timing. My understanding is that the belt cord material is Kevlar or a related polyamid cord that has essentially zero stretch up to it's yield point. That's why Ferrari is so adamant about not retensioning a belt once it's been run-in.

 

I'll admit that this is anecdotal from Philip's post in the cam thread, as he relates Michelotto engines are said to have used a stronger timing belt system to minimize timing changes.

 

Comment on belt stretch was stock belt. Dyno. Race (Michelotto) motor. Done by PHP. Stretched enough with heat to impact cam timing and cause the race shop to seek an alternative. I'll try and find out more.

I also contacted Ed. He declined. Liability. Seems like there's enough demand for 5 or so sets. Likely more when the word goes broader.
Philip

 

I really like the idea of a longer change interval, and more importantly a better quality belt and bearings...but is much really being saved from the standpoint of service time and dollars? Don't the cams have to come out every 15k for valve adjustments? If that is the case, won't the cam seals and such need to be replaced anyway? And if so, then changing the belts at this time is a snap too?

I know during a 15k on my 308, the technician went ahead and threw on new belts, since they cams were off anyway, while he was doing the valve adjustment. Tensioners were fine, and were not replaced until the next 30k.

 

Is it possible to just buy better belts? Are the belts Micholetto used available? Will they work? Is there a down side to using them in less stressful applications?

 

Not according to my mechanic. The cams are left in place, the clearances are checked and the shims changed as necessary.

 

Tillman! is correct.
In most all Ferrari V-12, V-8 and V-6 DOHC and DOHC Fiats (which use the same shims) the cams do not need come out for a valve setting as the shims are on top of the tappet bucket. In cars like Alfas, with the shim below the bucket, the cams do come out.
By not changing the belts and tensioner, several thousand $ less in parts/labor per belt change interval (discussed ad nauseum elsewheres) are saved and less chance to break.

 

Originally Posted by davehanda:
"I know during a 15k on my 308, the technician went ahead and threw on new belts, since they cams were off anyway, while he was doing the valve adjustment. "

Hope you didn't pay for the extra time for pulling the cams for a valve ajustment? Who's working on your car?

 

I just don't see what the big deal is. Changing the belts is simple. The stock ones seem fairly reliable. Very few people here ever report breaking one. They are cheap too. Belts are $20 each and tensioners are $50 each. The belt/tensioner change on a 308/Mondial is about $200 every 5 years if you do it yourself. I can't imagine why I would want to spend a thousand bucks to increase that by a couple years.

I guess I'll have to put together a belt change tutorial.

Birdman

 

I don't see the rational either. I almost purchased his last set but at $1200 it didn't make sense. I could change my t-belts and tbs 5 times just to make up for the initial cost. In the end I don't think it is worth unless you have a race prep 308 but for our street 308s the stock system is fine.

 

I agree. And I expect that belt technology has improved since our cars were new 20+ years ago.

I'm getting ready for a belt change next month... it's been 30K miles and 10 years since I had the last one done, so it's probably about time.

 

IMHO,
It's not the $200, it's not the 1-2 hours to actually change the belts. It's the PITA 10 - 16 hour job to get the A/C compressor & other stuff out of the way, remove the belt covers & reinstall them. That translates to 2 weekends that could be spent on other maintenance.

Just getting the belt change interval up to the required valve clearance service interval of 30K miles would make me & probably most of the others happy.

We've had 2 of them for years:

1) Ric Rainbolt's full belt change/cam timing adjustment writeup on the 'ExpensiveCar Online Service Manual site:

http://www.camerafilters.com/ec/timing.htm

I've been updating it for the QV & plan to add pics, but it's more than enough for most people.

2) RobertGarven's writeup on changing his using only markings, incl pix.
in the Old Ferrarichat Tech Q&A.

Don't have the link handy tho, but can be found by anyone who's not too lazy to go to the Old Fchat & search the body of texts.

Unfortunately, The newer 'better' belts have a much newer serpentine tooth design that requires cam drive gears with matching teeth. According to the belt Mfgs, the serpentine teeth have far less internal heating due to flexing & pulley friction than the trapeziodal belts.

The current belts are the best available with the 1st generation/late 60s trapezoidal tooth design that fits the 3x8 cam drive gears.

Certainly the Ferrari 15K belt replacement interval is a lot less than the 45K-60K intervals that Fiat & other mfgs that use that belt system specify.

There have been claims that the relatively sharp bend the belt makes going around the tensioner contributes to reduced belt life. If this is the case, then it's possible that replacing the belt & gears with a serpentine tooth system may not deliver the longer service life w/o a significant increase in the tensioner bearing diameter as well.

Hypothesis: the current belt's life would be significantly extended by simply increasing the tensioner pulley's diameter!

Significantly increasing tensioner bearing diameter is likely to require modifying the cam belt covers to provide the necessary clearance.

 

Ah, you guys caught me! It was late, not thinking clearly....he had to remove the belts to change the cam seals...as he was concerned about them sealing well after removing the covers....said something about 50% of the time they will leak after being disturbed. So he figures he might as well install new belts, since they are coming off anyway.

Verell? Question...I thought the manual says valve clearances should be checked every 15k, belts changed at 30k, or have I got that reversed?