The Ed Gault improved timing belt upgrade: any long term users?

The belt change replacement interval specified by the 308QV USA manual is at 52.5K miles, not 15K. It recommends that belts be INSPECTED at 15K intervals.

 

I'm looking at it: yes, valve clearances checked every 15K. But belts changed at 52.5K but inspected every 15K. I think we mentally use that 30K figure for belts and banter it around as "standard", but it's not in the manual.

 

I just don't see 5 year (even 3 years) or 30K miles as being to difficult or problematic to warrant a $1200-$1500 conversion involving new belts, tensioners, cam pulleys. Unless money is no object to you. Plus, what happens if the new system has flaws. I certainly would be inspecting my timing belts often if I installed a new system that may or may not have been tested properly. I have been on this site since it started and know Ed. It is a nice design and probably works without incident but to me it seems like money/time could be spent in many better ways.

 

Not for me it isn't!!!

 

THANX, I HAD IT WRONG!!!

Somewhen I got it into my head that belts were a 15K service item. Been there a while too! Early alzheimers i guess! 8 {

For me, at 2,500-3000miles/year, 5 years will roll around more often than 30K miles fer sure, & my car spends enough time stored during salt season that the belts could take a set. Hmm, maybe that's how I got to 15K miles.
I don't see that there's significant risk in changing belt systems. There are only 2 components that can fail:

- The belt
- the tensioner bearing
Here's why i think that both of these have less risk than continuing with the current system:

Auto mfgs. abandoned the trapezoidal belt system very quickly after serpentine belts were introduced. Serpentine tooth belts were pretty much universally adopted by the mid-end '80s by all the high volume auto mfgs. Also, the belt mfgs have continued to invest in belt materials technology for their serpentine belts, while there's no indication that they've continued to improve the trapezoidal belts.

Bearing technology, both precision, hardness, and lubrication has come a long way since the late 60s. A larger diameter tensioner would rotate slower, hence tend to last longer. I'd expect tensioner lifetimes of 10-15 years, or 100K miles. Admittedly, I believe that the current tensioners have benefitted from these advances also, but still have the small diameter concern.

That said, the only available facts would be the experience of people who bought Ed's system.

However, in the absence of data, I still don't like that ageing trapezoidal belt system, & would be willing to invest the effort into making up a system for my car. Would be less likely to scrape up the $$ to buy one tho.

 

I'm with Birdman,
What's the big deal with the belt/tensioner change?
The parts required are inexpensive and available,
and the job is not that difficult.
It also gives you an opportunity to clean and degrease that side of the engine, and inspect the seals.
While you have the cam belt covers off you can even enjoy such blasphemous works as painting the cam belt covers,
said to be good for 30 extra horse power in some circles.

Most 308s I've inspected, the belts were OK,
but the valves were badly in need of adjustment.

 

If you know what you want just go to www.emachine.com design it and have them price it out for you. The more you order the cheaper it'll be for each of you.

BTW, if you think doing a belt change on a 308 is hard you should try one on a MR2 Turbo. We only have about 3-4" worth of room to work with on a uni-body construction. No access holes. I'd kill to have the access you guys do.

 

I can get the machining done, or do it myself, for a lot less than they're likely to charge. The cost is getting the design. I don't have the engineering dimensions necessary for the serpentine tooth design. Working out all the dimensions for the cam gears & tensioner is a non-trivial mechanical design project. Probably 60 to 80 hours minimum by the time you get specs from the belt mfg, measure the 308 cam & cam drive gears, & tensioner, double check everything, check all the tolerences... That's why I was hoping to get Ed's design, he's done the hard work, got the dimensions worked out & at most would require editing & translating into CAD.

I've done a belt on a Dodge Stealth, about the same lack of clearance. So know what you're talking about. Thank goodness it's a 70K service.

That's counter to most people's experience in prior posts, and counter to what I've been told by the shops in this area, and to my own lesser experience. My understanding is that most shops find that 308s usually have all valves within spec at the 30K service, and seldom more than 1 or 2 valves out of spec when serviced at 45K or 50K miles. Maybe people are changing belts & totally neglecting the valves on the cars you've been seeing.

 

In the UK 328 Manual its "every 21750-28,000 miles or 24 months maximum" The "spots" on the maintenance schedule chart are in the 25K & 50K mile columns.

I.

 

I just had the valves checked on my 328 at 31K & only 3 out of 32 were out of spec & only by a tiny amount. It was so close as to be almost not worth re-shimming them - but they did anyway.

I.

 

You know, I am really glad to see that. I have about 6k on mine now

 

Yup, we have had this thread before...my 1987 328GTS manual said the exact same thing. But, FNA has changed that recommendation, and apparently quite some time ago. Based on what? Failures? More revenue? Maybe a little of both? I'm not sure, but it IS the current recommendation, and since FNA is owned by Ferrari Spa, then I have to think this is the factory speaking. FNA is even recommending that 355/360 belts be replaced every three years or 30k now! I wonder what brought that recommendation on?

 

Probably $$$$ for the dealer service network.

 

Please!!

 

please X2

 

Alright, ya talked me into it. Verell has me convinced I didn't need to do it, but what the heck. Give me a week or so to get all the pics together and write it up. I'm not promising perfection, but I'll give it a whack.

Birdman

 

yipee horray!!!

 

All of this sounds like a step in the right direction

But

What about the tensioner bearings and the drive bearings???? If the t belt & pulleys are a 60 k item but the other bits are 20-50k????wtf

As we work up the chain, persuing the "next weakest link", i frequently find it difficult to balance service cost with upgrade costs, particularly given the rather nebulous years/miles belt change interval.

Clearly, the approach to maintenance/improvement/investment is a personal choice; use, budget, strictly original, improved, modified or race. Complicating things further, technology evolves, with low cost, (sometimes) improvements, synthetics, platinum plugs, "pointless" ignition, better brakes/pads, sticky tires, CDs.

Sorry, i ramble, back to the point...ah yes, system reliability. Given the high cost, either personal or paid for, of mechanicing, I find it challenging to have the potentially needed parts on hand when i undertake a repair, or to attempt a service schedule. I'm just putting out fires at this point,

So, if we are going to do belts, what is it prudent to plan on replacing or having at hand to replace IF specifications warrant it???

All automobile manufacturers provide service schedules, but what do you do when you have a car that has had less than 1k per year of use??? and sketchy service "notes"???

Planning on bringing things current is my consuming interest, (passion goes a bit far, but is not wide of the mark).

I eagerly await the technical info to make those decisions.

With unbenowngnst humility and ignorance,
I remain,
chris

 

Larger tensioner bearings are on the list, so that addresses half your concern. Many other cars use sealed tensioner bearings & they're generally good for the belt service interval.

As for the drive bearings, I've said before that the ones I've seen have all gone 20+ years & there's a good chance they failed due to the grease drying out. Inner bearings almost never fail. I think that outer driver bearings s/b changed every 10-12 years. Expect that they're good for 60K miles in general. An exception may be the smaller sealed drive bearings used in the later carb'd 308s. They were replaced by larger bearings after a relatively short production run.

Oh, yes, the serpentine belts don't require as much tension as the trapezoidal belts, this should significantly improve timing drive & tensioner bearing life.

 

For a 2V engine the minimum belt service list is:

- Cam belts
- Tensioner bearings
- Yellow wax marker (china marker)

Add for the minimum prudent list:

- Cam cover, end cap, & distributor gaskets (T.Rutlands sells a kit)
- Cam seals
- Distributor seals
- Alternator & WP belts
- A/C compressor belt
- Permatex Ultra Black RTV or Hylomar

If you don't know when the valve clearance was last adjusted, then add:

- Valve shims (or have a local Volvo dealer that stocks 33mm shims).
- Valve shim tools
- Micrometer
- Feeler gauges - Angled ones make meas't a little easier.

Timing drive bearings: If they're over 10 years old, or if they're sling grease onto the area around them to see if they're slinging grease, or slinging/weeping oil. Then add:

- Outer timing drive bearings
- Timing drive seal

Think that's pretty much my short list. Would have to stare at a WSM to see if I've missed anything. I'm sure someone will joyfully point out any omissions.

The rule of thumb, backed by feedback from Gates in a much earlier post, is that belts on low annual mileage cars s/b replaced at ~5 year intervals.

IMHO:
-sealed bearings should be replaced at 10-12 year intervals.
- Oil seals are funny, they seem to last indefinitely, but then suddenly start weeping oil. Can either wait until they're giving trouble, or replace them at 10-12 years along with the sealed bearings.

 

Did you see this site ?
http://www.nicksforzaferrari.com/forzaferrariwebsite1_075.htm

Really hope somebody will help me on the thread:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135305&highlight=lisander
Alessandro

 

His upgraded timing belt and pulleys may be great...but, it seems to me to be a solution for a non-problem. You still have the tensioner bearing failure issue which is what causes most timing belt failures anyway. So, if you are going to remove the belts to change the tensioner bearing, why not just change the belts too...

 

Its not really a non problem. While there have been more than a few incidents with tensioner bearing failures, there have been more actual belt failures due to stripping off the teeth. The belt design used on the 3X8 was virtually obsolete before the 308 ever hit the streets. I have no clue why Ferrari persisted in using it clear up through the 355, perhaps they felt the cars needed servicing for valve clearance, tensioner, and seal replacement at intervals that made the antiquated belt a non issue. While certainly many on here have recorded high mileages and time intervals without trouble, others have been extremely unfortunate to not even make it to the 5 years 30K mile interval, or barely just. Anything that would prevent that kind of catastophic failure to the engines of these cars should be encouraged.

Scott's new adjustable belt sprockets are a virtual run on of the Gault set up. All we need is a better tensioner pulley and we would have a truly bulletproof and realistic 60K mile 10 year belt drive.

 

I too remember him, but...I'm still wondering if anyone who used or is still using "Gault's Gears" is still around and could provide some feedback? (since I didn't see a comment about them in the thread)