328 Oil Pan Gasket Questions

The gaskets get welded on pretty well. Razor blade and solvent is usually the way to go. Plenty of rags stuffed "inside" to catch all the bits. Easiest on a stand where you can rotate motor upside down but assume you are doing this in car.

With new gaskets, silicon on both sides. Not too much (sandwich bag thickness). Pan nuts are 6mm aren't they? Short wrench, not "too" tight, you can pull them out the block if you over do it. 2 - 3 fingers on the wrench handle. Wrist only. No forearm to do them up. What's that, 10 - 15 ft -lbs or so.

Not done the diff but believe bolt torque specs are in the manual.
HTH
Philip

 

The torque you can put on the pan nuts is limited by the (relatively low) strength of the casting material of the engine block and gearbox housing. The "spec" for the nut on all of the "M6x1P studs mounted in Aluminum" is 0.9 Kg-m (6.5 ft-lb) -- any more and you risk pulling the stud out (BTDTGThelicoil ).

 

Razor blades can nick the Al.

If you've got air, a 1.5" wire brush in a die grinder will strip the old gasket w/o hurting the Al surface. Just make sure the debris coming off can't get into the engine or tranny where it might do some harm. I just stuff rags into place, then vacuum before removing them.

Best if not there, but hard to avoid getting a couple of tiny bits lost in the engine or tranny sump. They aren't going to hurt anything tho. Gasket is soft compared to steel or Al, there's a sump screen & the oil filter in the engine that will catch them. In the tranny, the gears will powder them w/o a problem.

Alternatively, Permatex sells a 'gasket stripper' that I've heard will loosten old gaskets so they peel off, or scrape off with very little effort. Alternatively soak it with lacquer thinner. Brush it on & let soak for a while to penetrate. Then use a gasket scraper (Craftsman or other) to get anything that doesn't peel off.

You want the scraper to be just sharp enough to pull the gasket off, but not enough to catch the Al. New ones tend to come with about the right amount of sharpness. I used to be able to find fairly thick plastic putty knives with sharp edges. Never nicked a flange & would take most gaskets off. Made wonderful but short-lived scrapers.

BTW, I"m running a no gasket experiment on my engine sump cover. Both flanges are machined nice & flat. I see no reason to use a gasket. I just put it together with a small (~2mm") bead of Permatex Ultra Black RTV/Gasket maker. Only used enough so that it barely oozes out of the crack.

 

Verell:
Not to be argumentative (I hope) but to provide some further data. I used a razor blade (usually the edge, 90 degrees to the surface) to remove my gaskets. No issues. The lead tech at my local F dealer also recommended same.

Steve:
Thanks for correction on torques, I was guessing. My bad.
Philip

 

Tnx for reminding me of the 90 degree scraping trick, have been using the die grinder/ wire wheel so long that I'd forgotten it.

 

I just came in from the garage, and I am trying to get the 328 oil pan off. It won't come off. It drops a 1/2 inch and then stops. It drops so that the end of the studs are about flush with the pan.
OK, so how do you get it off?
I took out the oil temp sender just in case.
Everyone talks about the oil dipstick - but I don't understand what is where - since I can't see inside. I disconnected the dipstick from the t-belt cover and I tried turning the 27mm bottom of the dipstick. Turns a little, but anymore it seems like it would bend/break the tube.
So I am baffled (pun intended). Help. I want to get this off tonight. I am pulling it to do the shift seals. I didn't pull the shift rod yet - is it hung up on that?
I tried prying a little, but its not going.

 

The 27mm nut needs to be loosened completely (it must be stuck on the flange) and then you remove the dipstick tube (24" sleeve for dipstick if you like), then you can stick your finger in that hole and pull out the extension, that will allow the sump to be removed (with some wiggling around).

 

Should the 27mm nut spin freely around the dipstick tube?
It almost seems like it is frozen to the dipstick and if I turn it anymore it will twist the dipstick. And then I would have to cry or something because I can image it isn't cheap.
So are there Ferrari engineers reading these chat forums and just laughing their ass off? I just did the t-belts and was swearing at them about the A/C.
I really don't see myself getting a finger in the hole to pull out this extension.

 

Just to put a diagram to Larry's words:

Remove the tube's (item 14) 27mm nut from the fitting (item 36) -- you might need to hold onto item 36 (and the tubular portion of item 14) while turning the 27mm nut. The fitting (item 36) stays attached to the engine. Then withdraw the lower tube (item 16) up out of the fitting (item 36). If you've bent the lower tube (item 16), you'll need to remove the fitting (item 36) and the lower tube (item 16) together.
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Yes, the nut spins freely on the tube, yours is stuck....

 

It's fairly common for the nut to be stuck on the tube. Also fairly common for the fitting (36) to start turning before you can break the nut loose. Hence are likely to need to put a wrench on the fitting to keep it from turning.

I made a wrench for the nut by cutting one end off of a 1-16" Craftsman wrench. The wrench fits tighter on the nut than the exact metric size one would, so less chance of rounding the corners.

Soak the joint between the dipstick tube & the nut overnight with PB Blaster or Kroil. It will penetrate in & help them come apart. You may have to heat the dipstick tube -nut joint with a torch to get them to break loose.

As a last resort, cut the dipstick tube a few inches above the nut. After you've got the nut off, either replace the tube, or repair it by brazing a sleeve around the cut.

 

Mine was so tight I had to cut it and braze it - three years ago. Maranello must have a gorilla they let out of its cage to do the tightening of this part. If you have to go this route, clean the filings out of the tube before reassembly.

Jiggling the pan and windage parts to get it free from the block is also fun. Enjoy!

 

Someone mentioned in this thread that if you overtighten a nut on the pan it may pull free from the block. Well, I think I just did that.

I have a new 4 post lift in my garage so I was 'cleaning' the underside of my 308 and decided to tighten up the nuts on the oil and trany pan. One bolt always had a bit of oil residue (although it is on the tranny pan side adjscent to the oil pan) and I must have tightened it too much as it now just spins! Now where there was just a residue, I have a full blown leak. One inch puddle in an hour.

Can I fix this without removing the pan? I am not a DIY guy really...the lift is for cleaning, storage, minor repairs...

 

If you are lucky you've just de-threaded the nut. Pull it off and look at the threads on the stud. Run a die on the threads to clean up.

If you've mangled the threads on the stud, (look at it closely, you'll be able to see) it has to come out. You are unlikely to be able to get a stud puller onto the threads with the pan in place. Pull the pan, put a stud puller on and wind the stud out. Verell guided me before to the pullers that look like sockets. Harbor Freight (Chinese) or Craftsman (US) I think.

To get it to seal afterwards, I use a Stat-O-Seal, from Earl's.

If it is beyond you to do this, call your friendly mechanic tell them what you've done and have them fix it.

Not helpful to you now, but hopefully to others. Too loose is a sin. Too tight, a bigger one. Learn the rules of thread size, torque and wrench size.

 

Thanks. Feeling stupid but relieved. The nut was stripped, so I replaced it and all seems fine. I always assume the worst, just my nature I guess...

I've had this car for 6 years and now with the new lift I will probably become a pain on this site as I try to do some of the maintenance (minor) myself. I already found tons of info in the old Ferraichat area.

Thanks again. PS. Never open a garage door with car at hightest position on lift without a safety stop for the door. Do these things only happen to me? Damaged lid repaired already but it wasn't cheap!

 

Ok, I gave up last night. So I checked it out this morning. The fitting ,36, is still attached to the dipstick and it is turning. It just didn't feel like it was last night, or I didn't even see it. So anyway, it looks like I am down to two choices.
1. Make a wrench that will fit on the 36 fitting. Is this 27mm also? I couldn't get a wrench in there to even check. It looked smaller at first and a bunch of people in searching mentioned 24mm. But above, 1 1/16 was mentioned - which is 27mm. So I do this - and I still may not be able to get it off.

2. Cut the dipstick. Ok, so now 36 will turn out with the cut dipstick. And I would assume that the dipstick extension will pull out with it? And there will be enough room in the car to get it all out?

Which do you all think is best? I am sort of leaning towards cutting the dipstick. I would probably then put a small sleeve around it and a piece of hose over it all and use hose clamps to secure it all. Then next time around - just undo the clamps and it is all ready to come out.

 

The 1-1/16 is for the 27mm nut. Don't remember what the fitting is, but 24mm sounds about right.

Trying to hold the fitting from underneath the car while unscrewing the nut is almost impossible, (at least I've never managed to do it.)

However, it's a lot easier to access the dipstick area thru the alternator area from the pulley end of the engine.

Good chance you can break the nut loose, esp if you used penetrating oil yesterday. Squirt more on it before starting the alternator removal.

Quickest way to get the alt out:
Pull battery disconnect if you haven't already.

Drain 2-3 gallons of coolant out, then pivot the coolant tube in front of the engine out of the way by removing a hose clamp on top & loostening a bottom one just until the tube will pivot in it. Slowly swing the tube down until it's lying beside the heat shield/frame tube (ie out of the way).

Loosen the tensioner bolt (17mm both ends) & remove alt. belt.
Remove the pivot bolt for the tension adjuster (again 17mm on both ends).

Remove the mounting bracket (3-13mm nuts on studs).

Rotate the alternator around, Unplug the small wire from the alternator, & remove the heavy cable. Rotate it back facing outward & lift it up & out. There's a lift angle you've got to find that lets it fit thru the opening between engine & gas tank.

 

I moved the alternator out of the way, it is laying on the exhaust. Wasn't fun at all, even with the A/C out.
I still can't get a wrench on it (completely removing the alt won't change this). The motor mount is really what is causing the problem. Without that it should be easy.
So can the mount come out?
I suspect I wouldn't even have to support the engine. It has three other mounts - plus the dog bone is in - so it shouldn't want to rotate towards the front.
Feasibility of removing that mount?

Without removing the mount- I think I could get a wrench on it if I cut the wrench and grinded down the sides. I am using an open-end wrench - duh guess my only choice. And its too thick. I would rather not ruin probably the only wrench I have in that size.

 

Hmm,

Just looked at my car. Am pretty sure I came in thru the alt. opening to get the wrench on the fitting. Angle of the fitting relative to the opening could be part of the problem as I remember being just barely able to get the wrench onto the fixture.

Not sure whether I used a Craftsman adjustable wrench that was just thin enough to fit in the gap, or one of my metric wrenches. If it is a 24mm, my wrench is ground down to about 2/3 original thickness from a prev. project.

It is OK to pull the motor mount as engine is well supported as you note. The reaction rod will keep it from rotating fwd. Measure forward of the mount to make sure there's enough clearance between it & the header for it to come off of the studs. There's a spacer between the mount & the engine so you don't need a lot of clearance.Will probably have to lift the engine up slightly to take weight off of the mount so it won't hang up on the stud threads.

 

I wiggled and jiggled and jammed. And I just got part of a wrench on the #36 24mm fitting. And It broke free and the dipstick is out of the car! Yeah!
I put stuck a cone shaped rubber piece from a mity-vac down into the tube - pushed up on the hanging pan - and the lower tube pulled out. And the pan dropped.
All this work - and it is only the beginning.
My real problem is low oil pressure. But my shift seals were definitely leaking - I had engine oil in the trans before and oil coming out the shift shaft. So I am doing the shift seals - hoping that gear oil didn't make it into the engine - gumming things up and lowering oil pressure. Also I removed the blow-by and cleaned it up in case it was pressurizing the sump. I hope it solves itself with a new oil filter.
Anything else I should be doing while I am in there? Clean the oil pick-up screen I guess.
Any ideas on the low oil pressure - I haven't posted on here yet - because I didn't do the obvious yet - like oil change and filter change. I wanted to do the shift seals anyway - so I figured it would make sense to do them while draining the oil. I just didn't know the oil pan would be such a pita.
Anyway, thank you everyone, especially Verell

 

About eleven years or so ago (towards the end of my salad years) I was demonstrating my 328 to someone who worked for me. It was a hot day so I incorrectly thought that a few minutes runing of the engine would heat the oil sufficiently so I could rev it up. Off we went with me running up through first and second hitting 7.5K rpm. All seemed well at the time but upon using the car the next day and paying close attention to the gauges, I noticed the oil pressure was much lower than normal.

I decided to change oil and filter. The filter was crushed internally, and the filtering medium was detached from its base allowing a direct route for oil to bypass the filter. New filter, new oil and all has been well since.

 

Glad to hear it's out w/o cutting the tube!

Fram filter - right? They had a habit of doing that.

BTW, oil pressure senders on these cars tend to fail, not surprising after 20 years or so. Did the pressure drop suddenly, or gradually decline?

I wouldn't worry too much about trans oil in the engine oil. The viscosities aren't that different (gear lub has a totally different viscosity system. 75W-90 gear lube is actually fairly close to 40W engine oil). Big difference is the friction modifiers that gear lube is loaded with. Have heard that it's actually worse for engine oil to dilute gear lube than vice versa.