How do you think Senna Died?

He, according to Sid Watkins, didn't have the tiniest fracture, no other injury at all. If it wasn't for the wheel hitting him, he would have jumped out of the car. When i first saw the crash, i thought he would, it didn't seem like that big a deal at all. Apparently i was wrong....

 

how official is your information.

i still stand by the information collated that the human body finds it difficult to sustain massive decelleration, especially when relaxed

 

This is all well documented. Senna was killed by a piece of suspension attached to an errant wheel from his car piercing his helmet. Photographs are in wide circulation. He was otherwise uninjured according to Sid Watkins in his book and in various interviews. Berger, Alboreto and Piquet had all survived far worse impacts at Tamburello previously and Senna would have too if not for the angle the wheel (and suspension piece) came back at him.

Senna is mentioned more than Ratzenburger because a) Senna was far better known, but b) the cause of Ratzenburger's accident was always entirely clear - he had gone off on his previous lap and damaged his front wing. The cause of Senna leaving the track has been disputed ever since, not least by the messy saga of the Italian legal proceedings.

Jonathan

 

and then there's the theory that the conglomerate Mcdonalds was behind it (senna death) cos senna was so big in Brazil and his campaign anti de=forestation of the Amazon was against govt policy so Mcdonalds could get more cattle onto the grassy ripped out plains,

interesting conspiracy theory

but then Mcdonalds were on the grassy knoll near Tamburelllo!!!!!!

 

That's the way I heard it happened, too.

There was a really good program on (I think) the Discovery Channel a few years back on the accident. I kept a copy of it.

 

I also remember hearing Senna remark that a new component on his car made it "very difficult to drive" anyone else heard this. If i recall it was a new pedal(s) or something to adjust the suspension while racing, something that would help stiffen suspension to help the car lean into the turns. If that is true what are the chances that my personal favorite racer of perhaps all time just had too much going on and 'missed the turn'? I know it happens to me in my ninetendo games, and we all know how realistic that is.

 

First of all we can say the steering column broke because it was found broken after the crash. And we can say it did not cause the wreck because the steering wheel movement was recorded up untill about 0.12 seconds before inpact. Therefore, the steering was fine. I have tons of video and data from the car and I have seen a few different shows that explaine it. Not that anything on tv is taken as 100% fact but the facts match what was being described. Many people in racing circles believe cold tires, that nasty bump and a head wound caused Senna's death. It's benn covered on this site many times. And his car was in a corner, it did not get all the way through.
As for what vcould cause the column to break {head on or sideways} he did not hit the wall sideways, look at the front of the car he hit 3/4 full, the front right corner is gone, how can you say that couldn't have caused the break?

 

This is not true. "Brittle fracture" has noting to do with it, the shaft was "worked on" before the race and that is the point where it broke. The adjusting of the lenght of the shaft gave it a weak point but did not cause the wreck. Do you know how many welds have been used on cars? Trillions. To say "Oh, it was welded, it broke, is lame. Just as lame as "he hit a wall, so I guess he couldn't steer, I guess it broke" is lame. There are too many facts to create stories like these. As for what the telemetry records from steering imput, you are dead wrong. I have footage of what it recorded and it shows anything you could imagine, it even shows how much force Senna was using to pull the wheel towards him, it shows much information, that's how the investigators learned their information about the crash.

 

And it has been covered, it broke after the crash as the steering wheel itself was reporting to the black boxes on the car. Watch the video of him going into the turn, you can see the wheel moving straight back towards Senna and forward, this was true in all cars and this movement was recorded up untill a tenth of a second before impact. And that thenth of a second is missing due to impact, so there is no mystery in regards to thesteering column.

 

135 mph to turn a body into mush? Please. If it wasn't for the head injury he would have climbed out of the car under his own power, this too has been investigated over and over, many more high speed crashes have taken place where the driver was unharmed. If it wasn't for the front right wheel, Michael Schumacher would still be trying to beat Senna's records.

 

Look at Ralf Schumachers crash last year, he survived more than 50 g's at impact and none of his organs exploded, do you have any facts or sources?

 

I don't think anyone gave this any serious thought, he also didn't "feel" right before the race and people want to believe this is karma or fate. There is no shortage of stories out there. Learn the facts and come to your own conclusion.

 

Direct quote from Sid Watkins. I think he'd know better than any of us.

 

Here's a copy of what I posted on another forum a while ago:

"I can only add a bit more about the characteristics of the cars of that period, and how these would generate a likely sequence of events.

After the banning of 'active' for 1994, designers tried to keep the downforce they'd had with variable ride-height, by running low but with harder springs. The cars ran nose-down to generate maximum downforce from the big flat-bottom, the rear venturis were to the maximum width and at the maximum angle before separation/stalling, the front wing endplates were of a very convoluted shape that generated vortices around the front tyres to minimise the lift effect from rolling cylinders, and the exhausts 'blew' into the diffuser so that the harder the driver's foot was on the gas, the more downforce. With very high downforce squashing the tyres down, the faster the car went the more it sucked down.

Basically they were cars that ran on a knife-edge, especially the FW14. If anything happened to disturb any part of the airflow, it might lead to a total loss of control because all the interlinked aero only worked when the car was going dead straight.

Here's the scenario: the car has been running slowly, the tyres have lost temperature and pressure and a little bit of ride-height; the car speeds up to the point where the tyres can handle the cornering force with their reduced temperature; then it speeds up a bit more, so that the increased downforce is squashing it down harder on the tyres and giving them a bit more cornering power; then it hits a bump and because of the lower ride-height grounds its skidplates hard; the front hits first and the nose is lifted slightly so the suction of the undertray is broken; the front of the car starts to push, and as an angle to the line of travel develops the vortices off the front endplates break away and more downforce is lost so it understeers more; the driver feels the front go light and tries to steer into the push but with little effect; he instinctively lifts off the throttle, but the diffuser is already losing effect due to the angle of slip and the increased airflow under the car as the nose lifts, so losing the blowing effect of the exhausts is the final straw; it's fallen off the knife-edge.

The front goes, then the back goes, and with much of the under body downforce lost the wings alone aren't enough to stop the car sliding straight on into the wall."

Paul M

 

What i referring to was whether it broke before or after the accident. I've also seen all the info and what I take from it was that the shaft was at the very least damaged. What else can explain the strange up and down movement of the steering wheel? 3/4 impact or not how many other accidents in F1 have you seen where the steering shaft has broken? I can't think of any. People have had way heavier shunts and had the shaft not break. The theory that the car did not have a failure is a weak one. If you watch the in-car from Schumacher's car, the Williams shoots right like if Senna was steering it towards the wall on purpose. If it was really that evil handling Hill would have had a similar problems as well. If i recall he had the 2nd fasest lap of the race It's very telling that the Williams team had Hill turn off the power steering for the restart after the crash. I have a hard time believing any of the documentaries mainly because of the stupid Italian laws that someone has to be liable. Frank Williams and Co were in deep trouble. A documentary saying the car had a failure might have made it greater.

 

This is the best answer.

 

I'm currently reading "The Life of Ayrton Senna" by Tom Rubython.

I suggest anyone interested should also read it. I'm not comfortable posting the content for reasons of both copyright and respect for him / his family, but suffice to say he techically died at the scene from a combination of injuries to the head.

I haven't finished the book yet, but I spoke to a Williams engineer at the Melbourne GP this year...

I spotted the steering angle and load cell sensors on the steering column Speed comparison test car and asked him about them. He said that the column load cells were only introduced "in the mid 90's", and I asked him if senna's car had one, or simply an angle sensor. He was cagey in his answer which to me, implied it did not. I also asked him where the angle sensors were usually fitted at the time and if there was one at each end of the column, and he wasn't sure. So unless we actually see his steering data, and know which end of the column it was fitted to, we do not know if it was reading real data regarding to the wheels steering or not.

 

yes it is, I odnt know if I should have posted this thread. It is time to give it up, enough is enough.

 

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I guess we should all stop, but hey. Jesus died 2000 years ago and we STILL mark his anniversaries... and I'm MUCH more interested in Senna.

 

Agree, he was a racing driver ... and died racing a car. End of story.

If we put as much effort into stopping children dying of starvation in African countries or dying from perverts, etc. as we do this Senna death, we might actually achieve something.

Pete

 

That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. So what you are saying is that we have all been chosen to die by our creator at a specific time and place and no matter where we are we will die ????????????

Sorry but that sounds like some right wing religious gabbly gook. Under that theory I should take every risk in the book when I am racing because if my creator hasn't picked that date for me to die I can just drive straight into a wall and walk away with no problem.

I know there are many people who subscribe to this "fate" idea. Once I heard talk show host Gorden Libby tell someone they were stupid for being afraid to fly. He told them that you can't hide from God. If it's your day to die you can't hide from him and not fly or drive your car or hide from lightening and so on.

Senna's cause of death is simple. He died from the sheer passion to be the best damn race car driver on the planet. That is what killed him.

If you want to bring something more positive into this thread read my tribute to him on the 10th anniversary of his death: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16667&highlight=tribute+senna

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
www.flatoutracing.net

 

Jon,

You may think it is the dumbest thing you have ever heard and I am sure what you are saying could be the dumbest anyone else has heard. This is my belief and I have a right just like everybody else to voice my opinion and my belefs. You are obviously a person who will calculate the odds before you do anything.

 

CRG125,

I go to church most Sundays (have not always but was raised near the church and now I have kids have returned) but nowhere in the bible does it say that God will take us when he sees fit (note I could be wrong as I am a level headed person and don't take everything at face value). My understanding of religion is that God will be there for us when we pass away, and guides us in times of need ... and we should return the help by living right by others, etc.

The way you state it makes it sound like he is sitting up there playing a game and picking on people ... you were horrible yesterday so stuff you, you'ye had it, you are dead!

We all have to remember that the Bible is a book, yep just a book and not to be read as though it is 150% fact. It is a book of historical stories, legends, etc. no different to the Aborigini story time. We though, use this historical document to gain strength, etc. to direct our own lives.

If we took it as fact then there are many modern things that go against the bible. I believe wearing glasses is one of them (but again could be incorrect).

Blind faith in anything or anyone is extremely dangerous IMO and is why radical extremist are dangerous people. Beliefs are great things to many people but common sense and thought should be part of the package.

But you are 100% entitled to your opinion ... but we are also entitled to challenge them. And so it goes until it gets out of hand ... hence why common sense and thought is required to stop us all beating each other to death because we do not agree .


Senna died cause he had a racing car accident and was unlucky (yep fate played his hand) ... but fate did NOT cause the accident. Senna made a mistake under pressure or maybe something broke (but I'm not convinced about this theory ... this smacks of the same BS that was around when Jim Clark died, ie. he was too good to have an accident ... sorry BS).

Pete

 

PSK,

All I did is give my opinion. This thread is about Senna's death not about religion. If you want to talk about my beliefs and yours. Lets start a different thread, otherwise stick to the subject.