Why Do Ferrari's Need More Maintenance?

Short answers:
1)There's ~30 years technology difference between 3x8s/the 12s & current volume production cars. In the late '60s & early '70s when these engines were being designed, how many other cars of that vintage had the kind of specs you refer to as 'not too high'? The compression ratios were down to meet emissions stds.

2)The Ferrari service intervals are intended to ensure the car is in top condition & all but eliminate risk of engine damage due to part failure due to serviceable items.

LONG ANSWER: Do your homework
There are a couple of dozen LONG LONG threads about cam belt replacement intervals. A search of topics for 'cam belt' and 'replacement' will get you about 1/2 of them. Searching the body of messages will pull them all out, but get some simple how to change them threads as well.

Start by searching the old ferrari chat. If you still have questions, you can search the current fchat, but it mostly rehashes what's been previously said.

 

I wonder what would happen if someone had enough guts or money (or both) too just drive one and treat one like a Honda everyday with a "worry about it only if it breaks" attitude? How long and far would it go?
There is a lot of rich guys on this site - one of you should try this and just keep us posted. It would be fun.

 

I thought you were already doing that Dr. T

 

Maybe they're on this site, but few of us in this forum could resist the fun of maintaining one. Heck, I maintain my winter beater '87 Rx7 TurboII a lot better than you're describing.

 

No offense, but anyone who thinks newer cars dont need maintainance should spend a whole day at a junk yard walking through the rows of cars. Especially a late model junk yard. Particularly look at all the Saabs, Volvos, and Cadilacs. But in general, just about any car. While many are in there for being hit hard, quite a few are in there because the motor blew and the owner didnt want to pay the cost
Why the belts? And, excuse me, but how many other makes or cars rev to 9000 rpm? Anyway, the cam and drive pulleys on a 3X8 are half the size of the pulleys on many other cars. Our belts are making a tighter turn, and they are doing it at a higher engine speed in just normal day to day driving. Our 3X8 is reving 4K at 70 MPH, your Honda is turning 2K at the same speed with larger cam and crank pulleys. But Hondas blow belts too. The difference though is that many cars can blow a belt and no internal damage results. Do it with a Ferrari and the result will be catastrophic to your bank account.

 

If more people paid attention to preventative maintenance on the average car, they would be shocked at what they would spend per year. Owning a high-end, pricey car makes one very aware that they have to stick to scheduled maintenance, unlike the average mindset of a guy that owns a 4Runner or a Civic.

 

Exactly. Any car will cost in maintenance if maintained to the same standards.

And a well maintained car will last longer than a beater.

But there are a few differences between a Ferrari and a Honda (even a type R).

The turbo'd ricers have low compression base engines -- that means non-interference engines. If the timing belt breaks, the engine stops. The higher compression engines are interference engines: if the timing belt breaks, you're looking at $15-20K in head reconstruction, because the pistons and valves collide. So it's really in your interests to maintain the belts on a Ferrari.

Road appliance cars aren't tuned to peak performance. If they go a bit off tune, you wouldn't notice the difference (as you're not pushing them anyway). Performance cars are tuned to a peak -- when they go off, you get a noticable loss of performance. They still run, they just don't run like a Ferrari. For most owners, that's not acceptable. So the tune-ups are done on schedule, where road appliances are let go until they stop completely.

Another difference I've noticed since I've added ricers to the fleet: Italian cars are designed to be maintained: old parts are replaceable. A well maintained Italian car will last approximately forever ... or until frame rust or a major impact brings it to a premature end. Japanese cars are designed to be inexpensive: many parts are integral components, and can't be changed without replacing major assemblies. When they wear down, you just replace the car, or live with the sloppiness. You never have to settle for a "close enough" alignment on a Ferrari.

So cars like Ferraris are designed to be maintained and kept. Newer cars are designed to be disposable, so you spend less on maintenance, and more on eating the depreciation on new ones every few years.

I'll leave it for another discussion which of those categories the newer Ferraris are designed for.

 

My 1992 Honda Accord blew a belt at 70K miles. It left me walking on the side of I-40 near Newport TN and cost about $4K to fix the damage.

Bought the car brand new from the dealer in '92, drove it daily in Missouri, NC, Switzerland, Oregon.... maintained absolutely "by the book". In the end, I'm convinced **** happens. All cars break. Really, they do.

 

I believe this pretty much sums it up for us

 

Those are terrible examples of modern cars designed with low maintenance in mind. I have a 1998 E36 M3 with 100,000 hard driving miles. All I have ever done was oil and filter changes, spark plugs, tires, one set of rear brakes, thermostat, and one fan belt.

It's got hydraulic valve with timing chain, so no adjustment ever needed.

 

There is an issue here. When I raise it with my local F-dealers, they respond their shop rates ($140 - 145/hr) are lower than the local BMW shop ($150). I suspect this is true.

However, what is the service intensity of other performance motors with outputs of 90 - 110 bhp/L versus the costs of servicing say a 355 or a 348?

I suspect an NSX is better built and more reliable - $1200 for a water pump and belt change every 90,000 miles. It isn't a Ferrari though, and Ferrari has relied on the uniqueness of its brand for its retail shoppers (+FIAT, +sponsors) to fund its activities. Unfortunately, over time, this has a habit of catching up with you in the marketplace. Time will tell if Ferrari responds. And before there are cat calls of "Ferrari's are different", answer this, would you sooner have a 10 year old 550 with its likely servicing bills or a 5 year old Aston or a newer DB9?

You see the discount in the used market. Why is a Boxer a $60K car and a 355 becoming a $60K car? For his occasional diatribe, I think Keith Martin has it right, the service costs are dragging down the retails for the vehicle. It is one thing to experience a $10K service bill on a $150K car (6 - 7%). It is another to get same on a $30 - 50K car (20 - 33%).

Oh, BTW, the 308 30K service at the local dealers is $7500. I can't imagine a routine service on any other make of car costing the same.
Philip

 

That is compounded by the fact that as the cars get older the parts prices get higher, substantially higher. And not just to keep up with inflation or exchange rates.
I priced a cat temp ECU for an early TR the other day, it has gone from $450 or so to $2400. The protection boot for the 308 Spider top locating pins, a small rubber sleeve....$84. And then just look at caps, rotors and plug wires.

 

Where did you come up with the 15k figure? Belt changes are normally done at 30,000 miles.

 

Lots of good points in this thread. I especially liked the comment that Japanese car parts are assemblies and not replacement items. So true!

Belts were a brilliant idea on the engineer's table but in practice were an awful idea for the owner since replacements are frequent and expensive. I believe pressure from owners has caused them to go back to chains.

As for other expensive maintainence items, go price a BMW alternator sometime. For an expensive (at the time) sports car, I don't think Ferrari maintainece costs were out of line belts not withstanding. The fact the cars are "cheap" to buy doesn't change that they have an expensive car pedigree.

Ken

 

I have maintained every car I have ever owned "by the book", (Honda Accord, Nissan Maxima, BMW 540, etc) nothing comes close to what I spend on repairs/maintanence on the past three Ferraris I have owned...

Why does a window regulator on a 355 cost $1450, and only $200 on a BMW? Cause that is the only way you can justify why a car had a list price pushing $150k when new!

Dave

 

The reason is mostly due to volume. With Ferrari's small sales volume, percentage markups have to be huge to cover the fixed costs associated with developing new cars, etc. Companies that sell large volumes of cars can spread these fixed costs out over the larger volumes, resulting in lower prices.

 

Can't some of the simpler electronics parts be taken to a repair shop/electronics store to fix? Sometimes its pretty obvious if a diode/capacitator/etc burned up. If its a chip, you are likely screwed.

Regarding window regulators, I would assume that an aftermarket regulator would work...especially if you saved 2000$ plus!

 

That is what you should do. For example, if my alternator craps out on my 308, I remove it and have it rebuilt in a couple of hours for about $75. I wonder what a rebuilt one would cost sold outright to me from a dealer or private shop (with core exchange, of course)?

 

Thats the point. Ferrari makes a small enough number of cars that the aftermarket co's will not be bothered in most cases to make parts. The up shot of that is Ferrari can name the price. BMW has to price the part low enough to make you want to go with original equip.

 

That's why it is nice to own one of the older models. Lots more "off the shelf" parts shared with other companies under the hood and elsewhere as opposed to an Enzo or 430. Ferrari pretty much has you by the short hairs with these if something breaks

 

The ignition switch in your 308 has been superceeded up to an F50 part #. Guess what happened to the price?

 

Oh yes, Ferrari parts are expensive to replace. No one "fixes" things anymore, they replace them. Fixing them at $150 or $200 an hour labor isn't cost effective for the dealer but you can DIY lots of stuff if you're up for it. Or have it done like the alternator example.

Anyone who relies on a dealer to be a parts replacer will indeed have very expensive car costs compared to any non exotic.

Ken

 

2 years ago T.Rutlands quoted me $450 exchange. Don't think Ferrari dealers will sell a rebuilt one. so may be double that or more. Private shop: your cost will vary, some will go with a local rebuilder & a reasonable %markup, others with T.Rutlands or his competitors.

Same for waterpumps.

 

Having sold my BMW and Mercedes last year, and being a current Porsche owner, I can say that the maintenance costs/frequency on these cars are pretty steep. Not compared to a Ferrari, but much more so than people realize.

Warranties now run 4 years for most of these cars, so unless you study your invoices for work done under warranty you'll miss things like the $642 front brake job on my 325Ci, or the $800+ instrument cluster that died on my SLK after 7000 miles. I don't know how much the broken sunroof motor was in the BMW, or the two window regulators that failed in the first two years, but - my point (now that I've finally got to it ) is that a Ferrari is the kind of car most of us don't simply trade in the for the new model every 3 years. After 3 or 4 years, most cars get more maintenance-intensive, and there's no warranty to obscure the money out our wallets. After 8 to 10 years, any machine's gonna need stuff replaced. I think our expectations and long-term perspective are part of the Ferrari maintenance issue. If you planned to own your 360 for 3 years and then trade it in on whatever's next at a $15K loss, you might not care as much.

The second part of it is that Italian automakers don't spend enough time focusing on durability. The sticky interiors on the 348's, bad valve guides on early 355's and hundreds of other foibles we all know about wouldn't get past the Toyota engineering team because they test the cr@p out of everything. Ditto the $60,000 308 that didn't have rustproofing, or a 2nd gear that could be used until the car got warmed up.

Smaller car companies can either sell out to the Toyota's and Ford's of the world and get reliable (but dull) mechanicals, or do it on their own. Thankfully, Ferrari has done its own thing and continues to make unique cars - without Honda engines, Ford switchgear, etc. - and one cost of this is replacing components that were developed without the benefit of big volume (to keep costs down) or extensive testing.

I'd guess if Ferrari "sold out" and starting sourcing its mechanical bits from Toyota the maintenance on Ferrari's would decline. And - we'd all stop buying them. I would, however, like to see Ferrari outsource the parts that really aren't essential to the character of the car. Bosch fuel injection, for example, was preferable to some custom Italian system. And I've read posts here about aftermarket headers and such that are better than the originals. I've yet to hear anyone say that a Ferrari power mirror switch is uniquely sporty - I wouldn't care if they sourced that from Honda. In fact I might prefer it...

Whew - post done.

Jon