Why Do Ferrari's Need More Maintenance?

Errr... maybe I'm wrong, but didn't those cars require a timing belt change at 60K miles?

 

We all adore F cars which is why we contribute to this board, but as adoring as we may be the fact is that Ferrari do not produce leading edge products and whats more they are certainly not designed to be durable.

One poster on here commented on japanese engines and how they end up on the scrap heap, with a further reference to 'what other car revs to 9k like a ferrari.

Well my toyota revs to 9k! ive had 3 of them and that s what you call an engineered car! never goes wrong and with 15 K oil changes and 70K belt changes! Ok its dull! but on an engineering point dont belive that Ferrari is anything special at all!

it is unfortunate that after 30K miles you can expect t o replace many items as indeed I did on my f car; Many items that on any other car would not need replacment until three times the mileage.

To sum up, they need more mantainance because its the purchaser that does the development work for the company in the first instance and many owners do so little miles that by the time a design fault is clear, ferrari are on to a new model! and they are not interested in sorting the issues out. So they produce the same substandard components at very high cost that they know individuals will have to buy time and time again!

Its what you call 'branding' nothing more!

 

Umm,
John, the 308 power mirror switch is from BMW (well, was since it's NLA!).

 

I feel like you just punched me in the gut and I don't even need a new ignition switch

 

Sorry, but in terms of % increase that one is nowhere near the worst example on 308's.

Daniel at Ricambi America and I just had a conversation about that and you cannot predict or explain the increases.

There is someone on another thread with a 355 spider with a bad top ECU that I just diagnosed. $3000 for a black plastic box. The parts man apoligized when he told me the price.

 

My bad. Thanks. Although after having a BMW I would still vote for a Honda switch.

Jon

 

Or 5 years, just like Ferrari. I just had the timing belt changed in my wife's Lexus, at the dealer. Here is the difference, however: cost was $400, took about 3 hours.

 

I surely cannot speak for any of the newer Ferrari's after the 308, but as far as durability, I think there are factors that may be subjective.

I have toyed with cars my entire life, and learned a lot from my Dad, as well as many other older people. The first is regarding mileage.

Back in the day, it was virtually common practice for all car lots to roll cars odometers back. You just never seen older cars with anything over 50K miles. And most people didnt want a car with anything over 50K miles. And when miles = $$$$ and no cars cost any more than a Ferrari, miles mean a lot of $$$$$

Personally, I think its possible that there are very few Ferraris with truely accurate miles. And if you think its goofy that someone could provide altered proof of invoices with all this low mileage recorded, I am sure there is some ocean front property in Wyoming you could buy from someone. Yes, there are cars that are true, but many arent. And there is no way to prove it either way.

But my personal opinion is that, at least in the 308 series, they are very reliable cars and capable of high miles without major trouble. The V-12 guys claim their cars are even more reliable than the 308's. But unscrupulous mechanics replacing un-needed parts and charging exorbitant fees have not helped the image. There was a Flist member who had reciepts on a 400i that showed the exhaust system being totally replaced "twice" in the first three years, and numerous other major peices, yet at the time the car had only traveled less than 10K miles. No more exhaust was ever bought for the car in the ensuing 20 years, and its in very good shape.

Regarding the newer Jap cars, yes, your Toyota may well indeed rev to 9000 rpm. But Toyota nor anyone else, was building anything like that back in the 70's or 80's. Nor is anyone yet getting the power per liter normally aspirated of a Ferrari or Lambo. Not today, and certainly not 20 and 30 years ago. How many 30 year old Jap cars are around still? Didnt they build a lot of Hondas in the 70's?

And in regard to parts and service, any car dealer is a rip off on labor and parts. Its always been that way and probably will never change. I can do a 30K service on my 308 for parts only, less than $300. I cant do that on our sons Mazda MX6. The timing bearings, tensioner, etc, are more expensive. Oh, so are headgaskets, and engine bearings. And personally, running a timing belt on any car that is an interferance motor past 30K or 5 years is risky. Honda or not.

 

"Nor is anyone yet getting the power per liter normally aspirated of a Ferrari or Lambo. Not today, and certainly not 20 and 30 years ago."

Paul,
Read up on the Honda S2000.... 2.2 liters 240 hp. That would be 109hp per liter.

 

Regarding the newer Jap cars, yes, your Toyota may well indeed rev to 9000 rpm. But Toyota nor anyone else, was building anything like that back in the 70's or 80's. Nor is anyone yet getting the power per liter normally aspirated of a Ferrari or Lambo. Not today, and certainly not 20 and 30 years ago. How many 30 year old Jap cars are around still? Didnt they build a lot of Hondas in the 70's? QUOTE

How about the s200 honda and the toyota vvti 190bhp out of 1.8 litres??

The cam belt changes are suggested by the manufacturer at 65K and they are an interference engine!

Its true that there are not many jap cars from the 70s about now- that because they are cars that are well used normally doing very high miles and as they depreciate it does not warrant spending a lot of money on it. Fact is they are a better engineered engine! What ferrari is producing is actually fary basic technology based on 70/80s racing design.

And in regard to parts and service, any car dealer is a rip off on labor and parts. Its always been that way and probably will never change. I can do a 30K service on my 308 for parts only, less than $300. I cant do that on our sons Mazda MX6. The timing bearings, tensioner, etc, are more expensive. Oh, so are headgaskets, and engine bearings. And personally, running a timing belt on any car that is an interferance motor past 30K or 5 years is risky. Honda or not.[/QUOTE]

On your sons mazda dont worry about the cost of engine bearings you will neevr have to do it!

 

thats a load of bull.

by the way , that is.

 

'91 Dodge Stealth LE: Interference engine, 60K belt service. My son had one w/records. Belt went @77K miles. $7,800 to replace valves, & some guides. Belt service is a PITA. Took us 2 weekends. Only have about 1" clearance between front of engine. Belt was wider than the $@#% clearance!

If it weren't for the $#% A/C compressor a 308 belt change would be a piece of cake, especially a 2V change with my new cam clamp design...

Quit comparing current cars & 25 year old Ferraris, keep it an even field.

 

Time to get a new mechanic. It should be half that.

 

Well, I didnt say the Mazda parts were expensive for no reason. It did need those parts. How about $400 for headgaskets? $300 for the timing belt tensioner? $120 each for the three idler bearings? $90 for the belt? I found a kit for $500. BS. I peiced the parts out, pressed aftermaket bearings into the idlers, and got it down but it was still big bucks. The ignition died on it. Cant buy any of the ignition parts, coil and pickup are all in the distributor. $900 from the dealer, have to buy the whole damned distributor. $300 from a junk yard. Kinda makes paying $250 for a cap from Ferrari not seem so bad.

And Toyotas arent cheap either, and neither is Ford. They all think thier plastic crap parts dont stink. $400 to upgrade to the new style clutch master and slave cylinders on my F350. The original plastic cheapo junk wasnt any good, so they made new plastic junk that wont work with the old parts. Its like they engineer this garbage and then after it breaks, make new parts that your stuck buying. Makes you want to take a can of gas and burn the %$*@*&$@ thing to the ground so no one will ever need to buy thier worthless parts.

I expected the Ferrari to be expensive, and it kinda is, but the parts overall arent THAT bad. But I feel its a car, that the man who built it wanted you to be at one with, a car YOU fix yourself and learn to be intimate with it. Ask the guys here, the ones who do thier own work, are fairly satisfied. The guys paying to fix them are never happy.

But comparing a new Honda or Toyota to a 30 year old Ferrari? Well, 30 years from now most of these 30 year old ferraris will still be around. Maybe someone will be comparing maintainance of them to a car in 2035? That isnt even fair. But as far as Hondas and Toyotas from the 70's, I sure see a lot of those crappy Alfa spyders around, those cars everyone said were no damned good. Old Mercedes are still around. Heck, I even see an old AMC car or an old Nissan. But I never see an old Toyota or Honda. No old Celicas, no old Supras. I think they all dissolved. I suppose the Alfas are still around because they never ran long enough to wear anything out.

 

LOL, the same can be said for a select number of Ferraris as well. The Boxers come to mind (no flames please, it's still the Ferrari I lust after!)

Ken

 

just do a search and look for the new
Alfa GT and the Brera.

you'll see the future in those cars.

 

The parts to do a clutch on my 308 are less than on my Celica or my old Civic!

 

Now price TR clutch parts

 

1. "Wow! Sure is beautiful. One day I am going to own one of those"
2. "When I win the Lottery, I am going to buy me a Ferrari"
3. "Beautiful, It probably cost a fortune!
4. "Mom, I want a Ferrari poster and a book about Ferrari's for Christmas!"
5. "Excuse me sir, would you mind if I just sat in your car?"
6. "Honey there is a show on Ferrari's That I want to watch tonight between
8:00 and 10:00pm so don't even think about watching anything else."
7. "Honey, quick, take my picture beside this Ferrari. I will pretend like I am
opening the door."

......and a thousand more.

Yes, the big auto makers are engineering the S#%t out of there cars. In most cases for the money they are faster, handle better, cost way less to buy as well as maintain, but when was the last time you heard anyone say one of the above quotes about a Toyota or Honda or the likes of.

I do not own a Ferrari yet but am going to buy a Mondial convertable just like the one in "Scent of a Woman" that scene was so cool! I presently own a 911S that I feel really good in when I am driving it, because of the way it drives and the attention I get when I am in it. What price can you put on that feeling?
As an outsider looking in, that is why I will spend the extra money to own a Ferrari. It is all about that Feeling.

Sorry about the soap box speech but no one mentioned the cost of "Maintaining the feeling" that you get when you drive a car that 99.9% of the population will only ever dream about.

PK

 

I would suspect that if you drove a 308/328/348/512 12k miles a year that you could go 60k miles or more between cam belt changes...just like a Honda of that era.

 

Honda doesn´t manufacture switches ..

The proportion of value added by the car makers is in average something like 35%. Porsche sources 80% of the added value from its suppliers, AFAIK Ferrari is also close to that figure.

As to Ferrari parts prices: Yes, they seem to be expensive. But with their small installed base storing parts for 10 or 20 years must be extremely costly. I am still amazed how many parts are still available for my car 12 years after production and only slightly over 1000 built. I paid over 1000,- EUR for a new wiring harness. Instead of being angry about the high price I was rather grateful that this part was still available.

As to the original question: Engineering is always a compromise between competing targets. Especially if you have limited engineering capacity due to low production volumes. If "maintenance friendliness" would be high on the list of Ferrari engineers they would never have built mid engined cars.

 

FTR the belt change interval on my 16V VW is 40K miles. And it's an interference engine, so you neglect it at your peril. So a 30K interval on a V8 isn't as outrageous as people seem to think.

One interesting bit of trivia: the sodium-filled exhaust valves (yep, in a 1988 VW!) are NOT in danger if the timing belt breaks. But the valve angle required to safeguard those valves compromises the shape of the exhaust port. OK, maybe it's only interesting to me....

 

Not sure whether they do or not... but my mirror switches seem to be specific to the 328 and not off another car. Wish they weren't, lol.

The service isn't outrageous for an interference engine, but there aren't many cars that punish you so much financially in the event of a belt failure.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96132