I'd say G. Villeneuve for the serious sac he had driving most of the time outgunned cars. Senna is way up there also.
Who has pulled the most passes on MS over the last 3 years? I like JPM.... only guy in the last few years that isn't afraid to put a pass on MS when all other drivers said you can't pass in F1 at that track, or thought that MS was in another class and you couldn't pass him because he was Royalty. Also....even though JPM has not become a champ...he's got the balls to say what's on his mind. I'm so tired of the other 19 drivers that sound like my sister ( she's a PR person for a big company ). MS is King of the world! ...and still afraid to speak up, and talk for himself. The fans come for a show from the best drive in the world...and all we get is a school boy "thanks to my team" speech. ( You've been doing this for how many years and that's the best you can come up with?) I really liked MS before he came to Ferrari.... like Senna- "He won races and fought for champoinships in 2nd tier machinery. He should have never been battling for 1st. Yet despite being down at least 45 hp in an ill handling chassis he garnered a pole or two and won races." Who's the best in F1 for 2005? I can't wait to find out? For me.... F1 needs- Anyone who can give a winners speech without putting us to sleep!
senna pole in the first three races...then as the car comes around...hill wins the title. don't make this a senna / hill thread. basis enough for you?
Three of MS seasons were easy due to the dominance of the car. 2001, 2002, 2003. And the fact Ferrari doesn't let teammates race against him. Michael's stats are padded because his cars, for some seasons have been *extremely* dominant and he is the sole person to reap the benefits of that. Senna arguably had only one *easy* season in his career, which was 91. His other years with McLaren with Prost...well, arguably the greatest teammate rivalry ever.
I've actually seen a very convincing analysis of this...certainly one can't apply "facts" to this, but it did make one think about it for awhile...I'll see if I can drag it up.
Replying to many but mainly Jon's long post. I'll concentrate on MS, Hakenin, Senna and Prost. Lets start with Senna: - Purposely started in not so good cars to prove his speed and this was obvious, thus we witnessed obvious speed straight away. - Pole was an obsession ... a bit like GV, had to be the fastest at all times. - Dominated the race track (very much like MS tries to) with the get out of my way bullying tactics. This was started way before the race with mind games and made lapping easier, etc. and also made an advantage for Senna in on track for position battles. - Once in McLaren he had excellent machines, even at the end when McLaren were stuck with only Ford customer engines, lets face it the car would have been pretty damn good, and better than 80% of the rest of the grid. McLaren don't make Minardis after winning WC after WC ... . - In the wet he was amazing and this really showed the touch. - He was a brilliant starter and the first lap was miles better than most. - Racing was his life ... unhealthily so IMO. - As for team building, he would not have been as politically patient as MS but would have made a team a winner, why 'cause sponsors loved him and thus in flowed money and thus the big designers, etc. Remember he had Honda very much behind him. - His biggest negative was that he was a primadona and would have made life hell for anybody around him ... Ron Dennis was probably the only team manager that could have made him a WC, as Ron has proven over and over again that he is brilliant at maximizing a drivers potential (if he can see it). This is why Senna in the Williams team was doomed to failure ... Frank won't have that cr@p and we do know that Senna was NOT happy at Williams and missed the love from Ron, and used to ring him, etc. Prost: - My personal favourite. - Tutored by Lauda (another favourite) and was bloody, make that extremely, fast when he had to, but was a thinking racing driver and looked after his car like few others. - In the end he had a bit of a gifted motor racing career thanks to the way the French push their young and talented drivers ... thus he ended up in a Renault when young in F1, and made costly stupid mistakes when he could have been WC. Lauda sorted all that out when they were together at McLaren. - BUT he was fast in everything. - Pole was not important as he thought the whole race through. This though always made it harder and riskier for himself. - While he built the team around him (as did Senna) he used to piss people off doing so ... and thus may not have been as clever politically as needed, to con everybody like some do. - Brilliant in the wet, but maybe not Senna's level. - BEAT Senna in equal machinery when the team had turned it's attention to Senna. This was a huge win IMO. - Nearly beat Senna in a Ferrari, when Ferrari was an Italian team!. Even MS could not have achieved that!, but made a complete COCK of the start at Suzuka and allowed Senna to punch him off. Now Senna may have done this anyway, but Prost left a hole ... something I'll never forgive him for Hakenin: - I personally could not see what Ron Dennis saw and always believed that Ron must have been gay and they had something going on ... - BUT Ron was right and in the end Hak was bloody fast and on a single lap faster than MS. - Needed a good car, and - Also needed a win gifted to him to put a halt to the demons in his head. Would he ever have won otherwise? ... I think NOT. - Had a brilliant car (after the training years) in a reborn McLaren team. - Mentally stronger than MS IMO (I guess he had Ron to lean on), but overall package and ability to work with weak car not as good. MS: - Started in okay Jordan an immediately impressed (even before Spa in the few laps of testing he did). - Had been trained by a good team at Mercedes sportscars, so knew how to work with a big race team, etc. - Jordan team mate was one of what I like to call, er, field fillers so maybe MS looked better than he really was. Anyway good qualifying effort. - Moved to Benetton under dodgy circumstances which IMO showed that he is prepared to sell his brother's children to gain an advantage - Looked very good in the supposedly disadvantaged Benetton Ford ... but ofcourse they had Roy Bryne (sp?) and the car was ahead of its time aerodynamically. - Nevertheless there were many brilliant race efforts where he performed miracles (ie. stuck in 5th'ed gear, etc.). - One moment I do remember was his pass on Alesi at I think the German GP. Last lap or 2 and he went around the outside into the chicane ... ruthless and brilliant and required Alesi to give way, as he knew and expected Alesi to. Touch of Senna here. - Moved to Ferrari after his only real opposition was cruely removed from the playing field. - This move was the best thing that happened to MS's career. Watching him battle as only a true tryer can in the weak Ferrari was purely awesome and I honestly thank MS for those years. - He could have gone to McLaren and won every year ... but this move made MS much bigger and was wise. If he had Hak would never have won his 2 WC's ... - Thus this move to Ferrari shows that there is a touch of romance in MS with motorracing. He needed more than just the win, but to stick it up everybody and prove the impossible ... and it nearly proved so, as he cracked over and over and over and over and over again when he was so close to his first WC with Ferrari. - Thus he is weak mentally ... not strong at all. He builds himself up by being fast, but mentally strong he is not. Thus this year will be sapping his confidence ... but luckily for Ferrari he is a worker and will give it 100%. - And this is doubly why he will not let a decent team mate in his team. Pity as this would make him a racing God. I guess he watched Senna and Prost fight it out and thought bugger that. He has always destroyed his team mates anyway ... but he must have his doubts as he just won't let them race him. In the end while Senna would do just about anything to win a race ... and did, thanks to TV we have witnessed a very moody MS that has tarnished this win at all costs attitude of his. It is not just a win at all costs but a spoilt child 'I must win'. In the end though, MS just has no opposition and thus in recent years, due to other teams firing blanks and MS not allowing a real competitive, aggressive team mate, he has cruised to hollow victories and this is why statistics don't work. Like Doohan, MS will be remembered as the best of his day, but for many years of those days the racing was not the highest quality. Is that MS's fault? ... only in the fact that he will not promote a real team mate. Oh how I wish he would so he would be remembered as he should ... but how should he?. Thus: 1. Prost (he beat Senna in the same car and against the teams wishes). 2. Senna - faster than them all, but out raced by Prost. 3. MS - never as good as the quality of drivers nowadays is just not there. But it is starting to improve ... just as MS fades (maybe). 4. Hakenin - Yes fast, but Ron won those 2 WC's. Pete
Prost had an absolutely magical career IMO. 81: 7 points off 82: 10 points off 83: 2 points off 84: .5 points off 85: Won (by 20 points) 86: Won (by 2 points) 87: 27 points off 88: 3 points off 89: Won (by 16 points) 90: 7 points off 91: off by a lot. 93: Won (by 26 points) Aside from 1980,1987, 1991 he was *always* near the top.
Pete, You're claiming Senna would have won the championship because of pole positions? I'm not trying to be a ****, I'm simply trying to understand the rational. Dane
He actually did pass Prost, the race when it was stopped was reverted to the lap before in which Prost had been leading
The 92 mclaren was not a wonderful car if i rememeber right and the 92 Benneton was no minardi. In terms of ablity MS has a year and a half in already. 93 was also a somewhat fair gauge since they were using the same engine in thier cars. I think we just need to agree to disagree on this one, it's obviously never going to get settled but comparing different eras in which people never raced each other is different that comparing drivers that did race each other, you must admit that.
I really think that sums it up. It's like comparing Manfred von Richthofen to Charles "Chuck" Yeager even though I think Yeager's still the greatest pilot to walk the Earth.
Senna supporters live in the past and cannot stand the present. Present day reaity is that Michael has proved time and time after again that he is the best F1 racer to ever. I have a deep understanding of F1's history and have nothing to prove to a person who seems to know a lot about smoking banned substances. Senna was a good human and a good F1 driver. A world champion is after all a world champion. But Senna's fan think he is the greatest because of the kind person he was. Senna is not the greatest in their view because of his merit. Michael on the other hand will be remembered far longer for his achievements and contribution to F1. Michael is immortal. Senna will probably be forgotten in about 10 years when Senna mania finally dies out. Michael's fans live in the present. There is no need to waste time remebering a person who cracked under pressure and could not even stay alive!
you claim to have a 'deep understanding' of the history of F1, yet the part of your post that I quoted clearly proves you wrong. Senna will be forgotten when Gilles, Nuvolari, and Clark are forgotten - i.e. never! Or did they all 'crack under pressure' aswell?
Surely you must see that your statement here is so ridiculous that it makes it rather difficult to take anything else you say seriously. I am a Schumacher fan, but I can also see Senna's brilliance. Even if you are not a Senna fan it is impossible to ignore the impact his life and death have had on the sport.
I've read a lot on Richtofen and even did a research project on him while at military school where I talked to some of his relatives in the Bavarian part of Germany. Compared to Voss, the Red Baron is said to be very methodical and took out easy opponents such as observation planes and two seat scouts, never attacking overwhelming odds such as Voss fighting 5 at once. The Baron was all about strategy and and rung up his numbers over time. I am glad to see a mentioning of the WWI ace because given the color of their vehicles, persona, and legendary status I believe Shuey is a modern day Red Baron. I think MS is the best driver in F1 given his ability to melt team, strategy, craft and attitude. Drivers like Ice Man, JPM and Trulli have the flair as much as Rickenbacker, Voss and Udet had... Being one of the few people who admires Imperial's Ferrari love ( how can Ferrari fans actually be happy for Renault's success?,) Im still a bit digusted at his lack of admiration towards non Ferrari driving Senna. Not remembering him 10 years from now? Come on man, its been that amount of time since his death and the what ifs he could have done and the memory of his fights with Prost and insane qualifying performances are as fresh in our minds today as they were before. Senna= Awesome presence today and one of the best of all time. RocketBoy
I'm glad to see there are Ferrari fans with a clear understanding and appreciation of formula one history. I don't want anyone to think that i don't love Ferrari because i do. I just think MS is a little overrated that's all. I think i may carry a grudge from back in 96 for MS when they dumped Alesi and Berger just when the team was starting to come around. It seemed to me at the time that all they really did was buy out the old Benneton team but that's just my opinion. Thank you gentlemen
Another thought: Would Senna be any more popular if he had driven a Ferrari? It seems the most memorable drivers all drove Ferrari's at one point.
I believe he would have at one point, i think he was contacted by them but this was in the dark 90s when they couldn't get out of thier own way so he declined. At the time he said something along the lines of it's every F1 driver's dream to drive for Ferrari
Yup, it got almost to the point of a contract, but wasn't meant to be. The movie "La Passione" even has an eery dream scene in it where Senna sits in a Ferrari F1 with Enzo looking on. First I thought that was hokum until I did a little research and realized how close Senna came to actually driving for the Scuderia.
Yes it was very close. It's just my opinion but if he had lived I think he probably would have finished his career at Ferrari or Mclaren. What movie are you referring to? I've never heard of it.
Agreed on the Senna statement. Any Ferrari fan MUST see this movie: http://www.ferrari-enthusiastic.com/fe_contents/reference/la_passione_chris_rea.html Absolutelyfriggenunbelievably brilliant. And funny and touching. Bizarre, weird and cheesy and tacky all in one. Unfortunately only released in PAL in Europe. I had to convert it to NTSC for viewing here. Also sports Chris Rea's sharknose recreation. That by itself is worth it. Has one of my all time favourite Ferrari movie scenes: Our rich hero buys the remains of a long gone Ferrari racecar. They open the garage door and there lie the remains of the car and he realized he just paid gazillions of $$$ for a heap of rusty metal. And of course he turns the ugly duckling into a swan. Any similarities with real living persons are purely coincidental.
You want to talk about Senna death and its impact on F1. Here is what happened because o Senna's death: 1) Everyone became safety paranoid. Development was restricted in the name of safety. 2) Senna fans got an easy excuse to state that he would have won every single world championship from now unto kingdom come. So Senna did not have to win anymore, his death made him a winner without having to win. 3) For over a decade we have pondered what could have been and not appreciated current greats like Michael and Mika. 4) Senna fans become emotonal everytime the guys name is mentioned and a call to arms is sounded. Give it a rest! The guy is dead. He was a good racer. But he was nothing compared to Schumacher!
