More power from V12 BB engine

Hi...........

FYI....notes from Sheehan site on BB/LM engine/transmission upgrades:

512 BB/LM engine F102B000 031 was rebuilt by Carobu Engineering and was designed to rev to 8,500+ RPM. It features titanium rods; aluminum flywheel; forged 11.5-1 racing pistons; racing grade piston rings; ported cylinder heads with 7 mm stainless steel valves; shim under bucket conversion; IRL valve springs; titanium retainers and special hard welded high lift camshafts with journals. The Lucas fuel injection system and fuel distributor were rebuilt and tested by Kinsler. A custom fuel cam was used and the actuating mechanism fabricated. The engine was dyno tested and tuned for best power and torque. The Lucas fuel injection required special “tuning” for best drivability and power. Maximum BHP was 519 at 7,800 RPM with the maximum torque of 390 lb-ft at 6,100 RPM.

The transmission was totally rebuilt using special parts from Bob Wallace. The input shaft, side covers and 5th gear were changed. All bearings and synchros were replaced and the transmission was modified to take the power increase by upgrading to heavy duty side plates, a close ratio 5th gear, hi-strength input shaft and an improved oil system modification.

Total cost for the engine and transmission upgrades was $112,587.36 USD.

Check: http://www.ferraris-online.com/index.shtml

A Ford 302 V8 at the edge of reliability will produce 400-425 BHP.....that is a five liter engine with no overhead camshafts. The Boxer engine produces nearly 400 BHP "out of the box" from the factory, if one can trust the factory numbers. IMO, it should not be a problem for the Boxer engine to produce 425-450 BHP with improvements in airflow, such as the installation of high-lift camshafts and a free-flow exhaust system, and "remain intact" during reasonable use.

Frank............23005
www.masiarz.net/bb_resource

 

Frank,
great data.

Bill Pound once told me the biggest single upgrade for a 308 motor was a set of cams. I went with P6. Ferrari used the same (P6) profile in the Daytona although I am sure you can create a more aggressive grind for a Boxer.

However, if you are going to retain the BBi's FI system, I think there's little you can do to the cam profiles. Your options will be to convert to some form of modern EFI or find a set of intakes and carbs to "go back" in technology-time.

Having been down this path a bit and talked to some engine builders, I think the reality is that 4v heads will deliver a lot more bang for the buck than 2v. So, would TR/4v heads fit on the Boxer block? Would a TR motor fit the Boxer chassis? This might be the easiest/cheapest way to go.
Philip

 

Hi.........

Now there is an interesting notion. Four-valve heads.......hmmmmm !!! Don't know the answer.

Can the OEM Weber carburetors be tuned for that much more air flow or would there be a carburetion upgrade on a BB as well ?? Perhaps K&N air filters too !?! Might require a header upgrade and there are major problems with room on the bottom of the Boxer drivetrain.

Engine transplant on a BBi might be easy, however. Suspect the need for major change in ECU and electronics for the TR engine upgrade....rewire the entire car !?!?!

Rules of thumb: 1) "nothing is simple" and 2) "pay more and get more" too !!

Frank...........23005

 

Does Bob Wallace of Bob Wallace Cars have a website?

 

Hi..........

Don't have information on a Website for Bob Wallace, but:

Bob Wallace Cars
2302 East Magnolia Street
Phoenix, AZ
(602) 275-2543

Custom engine work only !!

Found information at:

http://www.ferrariclub.com/rolodex

under B.

Good luck !!!

Frank..........23005

 

While I believe that a "stock US" 512i would perform as you say in comparison to a "stock US" carbed 512, what I was refering was something more like what I would imagine a hotter euro car would have been tuned to. I cant for the life of me believe for one moment That Mr. Ferrari would have put CSI on one of his beautiful engines because it made more power. Its sole reason was for selling the cars in the USA with our rediculous emmisions standards. With "proper" cams, decent compression,opened up exhaust, and a correctly adjusted set of carbs, I cant imagine very much getting away from a carbed boxer. When guys are getting around 300 streetable HP from carbed 2 valve 308's, why isnt 500 HP from a carbed 5 liter realistic? And the 4 valve heads would just make a broader power band, while at the same time you could back off on aggressive vale timing and compression. But a carbed 2 valve should still make good power with a P6 cam setup, IMHO. The sound alone should be more than worth it.

 

The cheapest way aside from forced induction will probably be to buy a 512TR or 512M engine and use it with a custom ecu.

The thought alone makes me smile.

 

"aircon" in Aus used to have a boxer that had been converted to EFI. It retained the stock carb bodies and looked like stock, but certainly wasn't. If you PM him, he probably can dig up dyno charts or other info about it.

As always, try to capitalise on someone else's experience and development costs if you can

Dave

 

The 308i cars are pretty easy to convert to efi, the 512i is the same system. Once that is done, a turbo or supercharger will give you 35-60% more hp without any need to touch the inside of the engine, at least on a 308 and I can't imagine a 512 is build less strong.

My 308 is making about 520hp with 420 ft-lb torque at just over 20 psi. The trans doen't seem to mind. The clutch minded, but a carbon-carbon unit fixed that. The engine internals are stock except the valve springs.

Making power by increasing rpm puts hugh loads on internal parts. Keeping the stock redline and making the power with boost is much much more gentle on everything. So if you're looking for 20-40 hp, maybe messing with an efi or carb conversion and louder exhaust will get you there. If you want more than that, it is really hard to beat the hp/$ you get with boost.

 

Weren't the final (street) iterations of the 4v flat 12 engine 450 BHP (512M)? If so, that's about 100 bhp more than the 2v and without stressing the motor @ 90 bhp/L.

 

If you are not concerned about value, original condition, etc., buy a 4V from a Testa Rossa with transmission and put in the Boxer.

 

Anyone know how much power a Euro 512 BB made?

 

All 512 BBs were "Euro" from the factory since Ferrari did not make the Boxer for the U.S. market. The horsepower ratings provided by Ferrari are as follows (per owner's manual):

365BB 344 SAE net
512BB 360 DIN
512BBi 340 DIN

 

If those numbers are accurate:

365 made 78.5 HP per liter

512 made 72 HP per liter

512i made 68 HP per liter

Then a 512 with 365 cams and carbs should come in around the same HP per liter, or:

5 liters X 78.5 HP per liter = 392.5 HP? P6 cams should wake it up really well.

 

Hi........

Don't forget torque !! It takes torque to accelerate the great mass of these cars......very heavy vehicles.

Would a P6 cam profile preserve the torque output of the 512 engine ?? BTW, what is a P6 cam ??

Any change in stroke between the 365 and 512 Boxer engines ??

Frank...........23005

 

Ferrari race cam used on 308 and Daytona. See pics. Trace is of one lobe on each cam measured by Dema Elgin.
Philip
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Hi........

Thank you for the awesome pictures.

Would appear that the P6 cam has a longer duration. Can you run an engine with these cams on the street ?

Frank........23005

 

Frank
They are 288 - 290 at checking lash and very high overlap as you can see from the timing chart. I do run on the street (in my 308) with the intake valve about 4 degrees more advanced than shown here (the so called Le Mans timing) to help dynamic compression.

Idles fine with A/F of 14.5.

A bit uneven and stumbles on rapid throttle openings below about 3000 (you have to roll it on, then it is fine) and then stomp at 3000 when pulls strongly through 8000+.

I think Carobu found peak rpm at 8200 (again a 308 motor) so you'd want the ability to change at 8500 or so to get max out of the cams.

Yes, they are a blast. Badurski has put some in a Daytona and found good results.
Philip

 

P.S., Unfortunately I do not have a stock trace to overlay, but you can see the aggressiveness of the P6 ramp.

 

Phil~

Awesome pictures there, although I have the one of the lobes.

I had only driven a 308 GTSi before owning my carbed 308, so thats my only Ferrari driving seat of the pants I could compare this too. My 308 GTB had P6 cams with a calculated CR (9.7:1 pistons)of about 8.4:1. It also had about zero compression on #8 cylinder, and not much more on #7. Just the same, the motor ran smoothe at 800 - 1000 rpm, and I felt it had decent throttle response. Although to be honest, you did have to slip it and rev it some to get it moving. Performance with said blown cylinders was better than a good GTSi. I can only imagine a 512 with P6 cams running even smoother. If you want better low speed performance, keep the venturi size lower. The car will go like the wind anyway.