Enzo vs Saleen S7 twin turbo

Saleen - I LOVE the Saleen. If I can swing it I want to get into a new one later this year or early next. Additionally, I am the LAST one to yap about heritage and such (as a Murcielago owner), however, I disagree with your take on value.

What something cost to build is only important to those who seek to profit from selling it. What something is worth today has to do with how many will be available, how many buyers want it, how soon they want it, and how many may want it later.

A used Enzo sells for $1 million because it is worth $1 million. Period. The MSRP was considerably less but for many different reasons; racing heritage, exclusivity, performance, availability, etc.. people valued and continue to value the car much higher. Ferrari could have built 1,000 examples and it probably would have still sold for a premium to MSRP. It isnt something to be agreed or disagreed with. It's the market. Same for the Ford GT. With all the problems the car should be selling for under its MSRP but market demand said, and continues to say, otherwise.

If how you value a car is only proportional to its drivability and exclusivity, I would think that you would own a Lingenfelter Corvette first and foremost. You cant get much more drivable than a Corvette; Lingenfelter reputation is stellar; performance is world-class; and they do not work too many cars. However, as you pointed out it is only a Corvette and to you that alone means it isnt worth $130K. Meaning you must place a high value on the other less tangible aspects of these cars. These aspects make the Enzo, even though a lot more exist and it will not out perform a S7TT, more valuable because it is a Ferrari. Same aspects that value a considerably slower, nearly 10 year old F50 Ferrari higher than a new S7TT.

 

Cherm, the whole reason I have posted on this thread, was the fact that Ferrari owners were bashing a car, they really knew nothing about at all. You outta know as well as anyone how people get full of themselves alot when they own a high dollar car like you and I do. It takes people like you and me to bring them down to the real world. As for my take on what a car is worth, I have been around racecars, exotics, sports cars my whole life. Seen my share of 6 digit lemons in the world and I have learned to look deeper past a badge or heritage. GM and Ford have heritage, but not all their cars are up to par with what we are used to. For Lingenfelter, they do make world class cars, but they are also very impractical. The 427TT Ling is a straight line car only, with 900hp it doesn't like to make lefts or rights very well. To me, Lingenfelter turned a very handleable car into a drag car. The only reason I had a problem with this thread was the people talking about the Enzo like its the God of all cars, which its not. Its a valueable car that has gone up in price, but people don't seem to understand one phrase. "There is always something faster and more powerful." They want to talk about the S7TT like its a kitcar, or even specs that they pull out of their asses when they really know nothing about the car at all besides seeing a picture of it on exoticspotter.com or Saleen.com. When a car has 750hp, its a force to be rekoned with. The next Automobile Magazine supercar test that I see coming will be the 1001hp Bugatti Veyron, and the S7 Twin Turbo.

By the way Cherm, if you do get out of the Murci and into an S7TT, you'll never wanna get out of it, believe me. I have a standard S7 and thats addicting enough.

 

Look obviously specs are not important to that many buyers because there is a tiny demand for a Gallardo, a car that can easily handle a 360 (but not an F430). Yet 16k 360s sold on a waiting list and I bet I could walk into SportAuto (a fantastic local Lambo dealer) and buy the Gallardo I want, with all options I want, at MSRP and at no wait. Same (almost) for the Ford GT.

Ferraris have DEMAND. The one important thing in business... and unfortunately Saleen's don't and the Enzos will always sell more for more money. Unfortunate, considering how amazing the Enzo is but I saw the quality of the carbon fiber piping of the S7's engine and it is such a fast car too. It really is a great car.

 

Yeah, I cant wait to test one. Still not sure if a 05 or 06 TT is worth the huge price difference compared to a pre-owned NA 04 though. Prob approx a $150K difference in price.

What year and config do you drive? Had it on a track? Have you owned or driven a Lamborghini?

Wondering how different it is. I LOVE the Murcielago and it is very fast but my God I cant even imagine what driving the 800 lbs lighter, 750 HP S7 would be like. Out of control! My dealer told me for $25K more it´ll be delivered with 850/800. Insane! To me it is also a strikingly beautiful car.

I spoke with a guy who switched from a 2003 stock Murci to a 2004 625HP NA S7 and he said the difference was comparable to getting out of a stock Corvette and into a Murcielago, performance wise, and I believe it.

To me the Saleen is in some ways the Viper of Supercars. The Viper didn't pretend to be something it wasn't; it was just a good ole American Dodge that back in 1992 would rip anything up to 3 or 4 times it's price a new one... in a straight line. A true American muscle car. The S7, especially the TT, same thing only it costs a fortune so it'll rip ANYTHING built a new one on just about any track. You can also see what is 90% the same car competing all over the place. I like that.

Yeah, if I drive one I'll want to take it home at any price. Little doubt.

Congrats on yours Saleen.

 

Just a quick correction. There were 6 examples of the F1 LM made, one prototype and 5 examples for sale. I would have to say that the "regular" F1 was slightly more advanced chassie wise. The LM was a GTR without the intake restrictors required for racing, as such it did not have a few of the things the road car did such as the underbody fans. I love the LM, but for the same reason I probably forgo the S7, I would also likely forgo the LM for the standard F1.

 

My S7 is a 2003 with 550hp. Got it with very low milage from the original owner I know locally. Even with only 550hp, the S7 is a scary performer. I have never taken it on a track, and really don't plan to. There are a few roads here on the barrier islands of FL that are just as good at nighttime LOL. I have had my hands on a few Murcielagos, a Diablo SV and a F-360 Spyder. All were great performing cars, but wanting something more pushed me to the S7.

 

Cherm - finally someone talking some sense about price, demand etc.

A car CAN'T be only worth as much as it costs to build. Its far more than just "this bolt $5, that screw $7, add it up etc". You have to look at the whole COMPANY. Nobody is going to sell a car for only the cost of its physical elements - if they did they'd have to stop pretty quick. What you have to remember is the wages, the research, the promotion, the management/running etc. I might be wrong but I have the feeling Ferrari spends a little bit more on that than Saleen, therefore thats going to have an effect on the price of the vehicle. Of course I'm not saying the whole price is determined by overheads and variable costs... its certain that Ferrari hitched the price up due to the badge. But in the end thats what the people choose to pay for - the passion, heritage, the air of exclusivity... something that somehow I feel Saleen lacks on Ferrari. So the truth I think would be somewhere between the Ferrari fanboys' and your's (Saleen) opinion.

Regarding the topic of this thread though I'd have to say I'd choose the Enzo. I DO acknowledge it would probably be beaten by the S7TT (although I doubt whether it would be a monstrous defeat), but despite that I'd go for Enzo. Mainly maybe because I don't even like the looks of the Saleen (sorry, but I consider them... bland?), while the Enzo fills me with awe. Second - I don't think there's all that many people here that could use the full extent of either car enough to generate that difference between them. I'm surely no racing driver and a difference of 0,5s here or there probably wouldn't be of much difference.

 

Menoy I am with you on every point... but bland? You feel the S7 is a bland design??? BLAND????!!!! The Saleen S7 right???

Have you seen the car???? I understand when some people knock it for this reason and that but being bland is surely a new one for me.

PS The Enzo is amazing... my favorite car. Ever.
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Yeah, I know "bland" might sound a bit shocking, but thats just how I feel about it... like it doesn't evoke any special feelings when I look at it. The Enzo, Zonda... (not to be niased anti-US I can also add the Vector W8) those on the other hand just make such a different impression on me.

 

Wondering, what kind of cars do you see around Poland these days (besides a Lada!)? Think I read about a new Ferrari dealership.

I am planning to visit Poland for the first time later this summer. Considering another Eastern European investment and it is down to Prague & Warsaw.

Thanks

 

I'm with you. There is just something not very aw-inspiring about the S7. Even when I've seen them at car shows, it never has drawn my attention. I'm not a very big fan of the new Ford GT, but I still think there's something amazing about it. Maybe b/c its a retroed GT40, but it's shape, lines and style all stand out and draw you in.

 

To say the S7 looks bland, I think thats a very biased opinion. I see multiple Ferrari's, Lambos, and even a Bugatti EB110SS daily, and believe me, it gets old. "hey look, its another Ferrari, oh well". Thats the kind of feeling you get. When there are barely 60 S7's on the road so far, its kind of hard to see one at your leisure to get any sense of awe inspiring feelings, or disbelief. I bought my S7 because it grabs my eye at every angle, or when I walk out of a restaurant or club. Its just something that will draw a crowd of people anywhere you go. I get older people at stop lights asking what kind of spaceship I am driving because its like nothing they have ever seen before. And kids? well kids are the most amazing. NEVER I MEAN NEVER take a car like an S7 or Enzo past a middle school or high school, the kids might as well cream their pants because the car of their dreams was just right infront of them. To say that Saleen has no heritage is ignorant. From 1984 to 2005, Saleen has made one hell of a name for themselves. Mainly from modifying Mustangs and racing them. They also won SCCA championships, FIA GT championships, and created a following in the USA that is nearly as big as Ferrari. For 21 years of existance, and only 9,000 cars in that time, Saleen is more exclusive than Ferrari in the same period. Ferrari has established world wide fame, Saleen is gaining world wide fame almost monthly, and will do so as long as they race the S7R in the FIA GT cup. In my opinion, the one thing Ferrari has over Saleen more than anything else is TIME.

 

Well I never bother to debate how something looks to someone. Who am I to say to anyone why they should and shouldnt feel a car looks good. But bland... objectively speaking the S7 can be called a lot of things both pos & neg but a bland design just doesnt make any sense to me.

Like saying the 750HP twin turbo is slow and boring because it is only 2 val V8. You might be into the hyper tech of the Italian exotics and that is fine... but that doesnt slow down the American V8.

Steve Saleen is a lot like Enzo Ferrari. He is a driver at heart and he builds cars primarily to support his efforts at the track. Different times for sure... but to me very similar. Major difference being how much more competitive it is today both on the track and off. Impressive guy.

The S7R is a kick ass track car! The street version S7 is basically the same car. Bet it didnt seem very bland when it set a new track record at Le Mans! Or when it won at Sebring, along with 39 other wins worldwide.

The Enzo is my favorite street car.... but Enzo himself probably would have hated it. He would have wanted a track car... like the F40.

 

Well Cherm, you might be in for a bit of a shock if you consider the Lada for the standard car in Poland Warsaw sees some nice examples, I don't live there myself so I can't vow that this is true, but I've heard of people seeing various interesting cars - Enzo, Carrera GT, Gallardo, Continental GT, 612, GT2, GT3RS etc... so its not as bad as you (as recently also as I) think. I don't think there's a Ferrari dealership (I would've probably known of that) but there is a Porsche one. Now I know thats not impressive, but you have to understand Poland is not Monaco.

Saleen - as to my opinion being biased I think thats unfair to say. I could say the same about your positive opinion being biased and it would be just as true. As to the heritage - yes, they have made somewhat of a name for themselves, but ask an average person (maybe lets say not from the US) what a Ferrari and what a Saleen is and I'm prettey sure of the outcome. I'd like to ask - please don't take me as some narrow minded Ferrari fanboy. Yes, I do love Ferrari, but it hasn't stopped me from appreciating other companies. I respect that you may have a different opinion on the Saleen and I will not say its biased because you own one. Please - we all love cars and lets all respect that.

 

man , put some pics with YOU and YOUR car
i have one in my garage .....
let`s see it
be proud of it

 

The Saleen S7 TT may look better on paper than an Enzo, however, I still believe that the Enzo would be capable of producing quicker lap times on a european-style track, such as Road America or pure european tracks, for example, Monaco or the north Nurburgring.

 

Actually, with all the long straights at Road America, I think the Saleen would have the advantage there.

 

And thats where the Enzo's brakes come in handy.

 

Too bad a Toyota makes better HP numbers in that catagory than Ferrari.


And as far as handling vs. HP goes just watch this: 930 vs. z06
http://www.s3mag.com/porsche.wmv