308 stuck valve? | FerrariChat

308 stuck valve?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by pernicev, Jun 22, 2005.

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  1. pernicev

    pernicev Karting

    Jun 22, 2005
    134
    I am in the middle of doing a major service on my 78. When I put my new set of timing belts on, with everything lined up, I cranked the engine to tension the belts. Unfortunately, either the tensioner spring did not deploy or the tensioner nuts were not loose enough so the belt slipped considerably. The engine wouldn't crank further because of the extended valves, so I disconnected the cams (by that I mean I loosened all of the cam cap nuts so that the valves all close). After this, the engine cranks further, but still stops
    (hits a valve).
    I followed this by removing all of the cams as well as the "buckets" that the shims sit in. The foward bank valve assemblies look even, but on the rear bank cylinder #1 exhaust valve sits higher than the others and can even be "lifted" a little higher (!), while the #4 exhaust valve sits a little lower. I don't think the valves are bent, as I only cranked the engine gently by hand. So I guess the question is, how can a valve get stuck and has anyone ever "unstuck" one before? I am really trying to avoid head removal even though it's the rear bank which won't require pulling out the engine.
     
  2. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    The valve that is sitting lower down appears to be stuck. But the one that is sitting higher and can be pulled up some more, how's that then? Excessive valve seat wear or very strangely worn valve.

    Unfortunately it sounds like you may have to take the head off anyway to find out what is going on.
     
  3. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Phil Hughes
    Either way you absolutely don't need to take the engine out. All 308's can have their heads removed in situ. Only some need the forward cam cover studs removed, that's all. Unless they're seized onto the head studs with corrosion of course. I've only ever taken one out for this, and done at least 30 cars heads overhaul.

    Valves bend quite easily, but you say one is high?? A bent one would make the top sit lower.. so maybe you have 3 bent ones??

    Weird?

    Try tapping it to see if it pops back into place, but I doubt it.
     
  4. pernicev

    pernicev Karting

    Jun 22, 2005
    134
    Yeah I've already tried tapping on a block of wood on top of the valve spring, but nothing. The strangest part is that after tapping, the exhaust valve on cyl #2 came up just like #1 and I was able to take the springs out of both almost by hand and lift the 2 valves about a half inch higher than the usual height. To make this story even stranger, the engine had 200+ compression on each cylinder before begining this work and ran like a champ, so I have my doubts about excessive wear.
    The stoppage occurs at near TDC making it either cyl #1, 4, 6, or 8. Intake valve on #1 looks slightly lower as does exhaust on #4, but no success on tapping them free. I'm looking for other possible solutions before taking off the heads.
    Vince
     
  5. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:
    Kenneth
    Is there any chance you replaced some parts with an incorrect part? Wrong valve size or something along those lines?

    Ken
     
  6. pernicev

    pernicev Karting

    Jun 22, 2005
    134
    When I replaced the shims for my valve adjustment, I was not able to measure if the clearance was correct, since I couldn't turn the crank to measure with the cam lobes pointed up. It is conceivable that if I was off in my clearance measurements and that I could have put in a shim that was too thick. Even with the close valve/piston interface of the 308 engine, I am doubtful I could have bent anything this way, because if I was off, it couldn't be by much. I have the cams off now so it shouldn't matter unless something is stuck or bent. What would be the clearance between valve and piston?
    Vince
     
  7. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

    Feb 15, 2001
    4,367
    NY
    You may have snapped off the end of the valve . It looks like you need to pull the head.
     
  8. pernicev

    pernicev Karting

    Jun 22, 2005
    134
    I'm thinking the valve seal is sliding up somehow. If the valve had snapped, I'd probably be able to slide it out completely since they almost always break at the thinest part.
    You are right though, I need to pull the head, hopefully only the rear one. What's a head gasket go for these days, $200? I take it that no one has actually ever been successful in re-using one?
     
  9. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:
    Kenneth
    I wouldn't even try...

    Ken
     
  10. scorpion

    scorpion Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2004
    469
    Kentucky
    Sounds like you need to pull the head to see what's going on. From what you said it sounds like you cranked the engine to tension the belts???? I'm not trying to sound like a smart ass but in the future rotate the belts manually w/ a 32mm socket on the crank and do the belts one at a time to avoid a reoccurance. Rotate each bank two full times - you can see immediately if they are tensioning or not.
     
  11. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Phil Hughes
    Yep, sounds like you've snapped the hads off the valve some how.

    They won't just lift out necessarily, as they get clagged up with carbon etc making them tight in the guide.

    Oh dear... OFF WITH IT'S HEADS!
     
  12. bert308

    bert308 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
    1,776
    Roermond Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Bert Kanters
    On my '80 308i it's a 36 mm socket on the crank, did this this week. Shouldn't the tensioners be fixed when hand-cranking the engine, and then after 2 revolutions be loosened and tightened again?
     
  13. pernicev

    pernicev Karting

    Jun 22, 2005
    134
    When I said I cranked the engine, of course I meant manually! This is not my first time doing this, but I do feel like an idiot.
    I was able to pull off the rear head tonight in a couple hours. It was alot easier than I remembered. Kudos to Steve King, you guessed it first. I had not one, but two broken exhaust valves. The engine cranks (yes, I mean manually) fine now so I'm pretty confident in the foward bank. This shouldn't be a big job, but who would have thought this could happen when cranking manually. This certainly is the first time I've seen it. Let that be a lesson to all of you!
    In the past I've always sent out my heads to be done. I take it that once I slide the new valves in, I will need to acquire the Fiat/Alfa spring compressor? Any tips on assemby?
    Vince
     
  14. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,662
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    You are not going to "just" replace the valves and put it back, right? You are here now, why not get a full valve job, grind and all. The new valves face will have to be ground to make it fit properly.

    But, if you are really going to do the minimum repairs then:

    1. Need new valve seals,
    2. Need valve stem protector while you install the seals
    3. Need a seal puller, looks like a pair of needle nose pliers
    4. Need a motorcycle engine valve spring compressor
    5. New valve shims

    I think you know how to do the rest.
     
  15. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
    NWA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Uhmmmm, maybe a leak down test on the forward bank would be a good idea? Hate to see you rebuild the rear head and reassemble only to find you have promblems there as well.
     
  16. bert308

    bert308 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
    1,776
    Roermond Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Bert Kanters
    There are threads here about how easily these exhaust valves break, they are sodium filled and commonly replaced with steel valves that are not hollow. Maybe a good time to upgrade but that involves taking of the other head too.
     
  17. pernicev

    pernicev Karting

    Jun 22, 2005
    134
    This is a pretty low mileage engine, so I'm going to look at my options before commiting to a head rebuild. Funny you should mention sodium valves though. I completely forgot these were sodium filled until I was washing the broken valves and they started heating up and singing: "snap, crackle, pop"!
    Thanks for all the suggestions.
     
  18. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,022
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    No, the tensioners must be free during the hand-cranking. The purpose of hand cranking is to ensure that all portions of the belt are under equal tension, & the tensioner spring is controlling that tension.

    Observe their motion, & where in the rotation each one is at it's max inward position. Mark that position on the tensioner body or the head w/ a felt marker. After the 2nd revolution, continue cranking, as each tensioner comes up to it's max inward position, tighten it down.

    2V engines don't have very much tensioner motion, while on 4V engines it's pretty noticeable.
     
  19. pcelenta

    pcelenta Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    216
    Vince,
    is that you? It must be! How are things? Paul Celentano here ..the other Calabrese Ferrari nut. Remember me? I still have the old black 78 308...it has aprox 75k miles on it now. I did the same thing to my 308 10 years ago when I did the belts...unfortunately I tweeked to exhaust valves on the firewall side. You still in New Jersey? I still hear from Lashdeep...Ben Kao is in Hong Kong now. I see Barry on Bloomberg TV all the time. You picked up a 78...GTS or B...what color? I think I saw your old 79 come up on ebay not to soon after you sold it. Hope all is well...running that Enzo4ari plate again?

    Regards,
    Paul
     
  20. pernicev

    pernicev Karting

    Jun 22, 2005
    134
    Yes I am back in the Ferrari game with my third one, a 78 308 GTB. Haven't had much time for this with 3 kids (yes, three now). The last time we spoke, you were thinking about putting yours up for sale. Did you ever make it to Italy or Villa San Giovanni for that matter? Anyway, e-mail me at [email protected] so we can catch up.
    Vince
     

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