Ferrari sued for lack of speed

I just finished watching the latest Top Gear ep. It included the iconic Jag E-type and the AM DB5. What struck me about the cars was the manner in which the manufacturers had grossly inflated the claimed top speed and hp figures to sell the car. This is not a new phenomenon. Mazda recently got caught with its hand in the cookie jar over their RX-8's "optimistic" power output, but this sort of fraud (yes, it is *fraud*) is hardly new. And car mnufacturers are just not called on it often enough to matter, and they still get away with it with barely a slap on their wrist.

This is a Ferrari, for Pete's sake. It's a marque defined by a few things, but *mainly* by performance. Top speed is a critical indicator of supercar performance so a false claim in that respect is an inexcusable transgression.

Furthermore, this is a Challenge Stradale. Not just an entry level road going F-car. This is a car that has had luxury items removed, stuff replaced by expensive (but light) carbon fiber, and has had the ride stiffened up so that comfort is significantly compromised in favor of performance. This guy obviously bought this car for performance, he could give two hoots about comfort. He deserves what he thought he was paying for, what he was promised.

Ferrari advertised a top speed, and the car should perform as advertised. Otherwise this guy deserves his money back. If he doesn't get it, he should sue, and I hope he wins.

 

I have read posts here at FerrariChat complaining of everything from squeaks to rattles, to gummy interiors & have certainly heard of lawsuits stemming from such petty complaints. Where in the warranty or in the product description does Ferrari EVER state that the car will not occasionally squeak or rattle?

Ferrari DOES state that a particular model will be capable of reaching a specified speed. If a given example fails to do so (especially after waiting 18 months or more for delivery!), they should be held accountable.

As to suing when a 308 QV cannot reach 60 in 6.8 sec - that would have been reasonable during the warranty period if it could be proven that the car could not meet that specification. After the warranty expires? No such luck.

 

Excellent post. Well said.

 

No, not at all. Even at the ´real´ topspeed, the car is extremely fast.

 

So then, by now we all know to take a manufacturers claim about topspeed with a little grain of salt. But not this guy. No, he is actually surprised and willing to sue.

Are there more CS-owners complaining about the same thing? If not, than this is not about Ferrari making false claims, but about a car that needs to be fixed. Or about a German guy that can´t read a speedo.

 

Why should we? Ford got caught doing this with the SVT Cobra Mustang, got taken to task and had to remedy each and every car to make sure it met their initial HP claims. Why should Ferrari not be held accountable? Especially at 70 times the cost of an SVT Mustang!

 

"I don't know why you would mention a test drive."

Clax, it was a stab at humor. I just can't take this lawsuit seriously, if there really is such a suit .. this thread probably has gone on too long given the very limited info we have.

That said, I'd be embarassed to file a suit against Ferrari if I could "only" get my CS to within 10 mph of its claimed top speed. If it mattered all that much to me, the world would be a better place if I'd just sell the car and give to charity all the money I'd spend on litigation.

Yes, I agree with the principle that manufacturers should be held to product claims! I don't think this particular claim matters all that much ... or at all, really ... maybe a little.

Wish I had a convenient place to test my car's top speed, other than a US public road. I track the car occasionally, and would be willing to do a test if anyone has a safe place. The test doesn't really prove anything, though, because it wouldn't replicate the conditions under which Ferrari test their cars.

 

someone please follow this case to the end and keep us posted

 

There are no public resources being wasted. It's a lawsuit brought by a private party against another party. Ferrari is publicly owned (to some extent), but it is not a government entity. This has nothing to do with taxpayer resources.

 

Or maybe most CS owners haven't ever driven their car at top speed and have no idea how fast their car will (or won't) go.

 

Here is the link to the Bild-Zeitung: Lahme Möhre ( lame carrot)

Funny guy: Zu langsam! Da kann ich mir ja gleich einen Porsche kaufen.“ -> "To slow, I could buy an Porsche." (The GT3 is much cheaper and goes over 306 km/h on the Autobahn, that would be his problem... )

Don´t take everything for true at the sensational press ...

Bernd

 

But surely some magazine's have pushed the car in order to determine it's real topspeed? I've never heard any statements saying Ferrari is effectively lying about the CS topspeed.

 

Why should we? Because we've come to know that manufacturers tend to crank up the specifications for reasons of advertising. The law does not exist to protect the naive.

And I still have my reservations about the CS being structurally slower then the publicised specifications.

 

And this is acceptable to consumers? News flash...there are no "little" lies in advertising. Fraud is fraud. Plain and simple. There are laws against this, regardless of the margin of difference between the truth and the fraudulent claims of the manufacturer.

There are only 2 ways to solve this case. Either Ferrari makes his car acheive the advertised speed, or they compensate him for their fraudulent claims.

 

agreed, fraud is fraud, and being off spec a little is like being a little pregnant...i know some car makers will purposely under spec their cars to make sure they never underperform a nd they often over perform...i have no problems with that....

 

do you really believe this??? so its ok for a sports car advertise with 400 hp and 170mph top speed to have 300 hp and 140 mph top speed.?..i dont think so, esp. expensive sports cars...why else would a cs cost over 200k??? just to look good and have good airbags????

 

Hi everyone,
I don't post very often but this time I have to ad something.

1. In general don't believe everything that is said in the "Bild Zeitung". This is about the last source on earth I would believe. If they don't have a story they just invent one!

2. I live in Berlin an read about the same case in a more credible newpaper. The real stroy goes like this. He waited 18month, bought the car and was suspicious because his official german papers only showed 415 german horsepower and he though it should be more. I'm not sure if that might be due to little differences between sae horsepower, british horsepower ans german horsepower. Then he took the car to a rolling road and found that the car would run into the rev limiter at 8500 in top gear doing only 282km/h. Now he sues the seller because the seller doesn't want to take the car back. Ferrari says that the measurements they did are not accurate so more measuements will be made.

3. In Germany you don't get as much money when suing somebody like elsewhere so we can exclude that he wants to get rich through this lawsuit. If he wins I think he will get out of his investement without any loss but not much more.

4. My personal opinion. It might be extreme but if what is written is true I can understand him. Ferrari advertises the car with such a top speed and on the Autobahn or on some Racetracks around here it would be possible to go that fast. On the autobahn the max speed of most cars varies quite a bit with head/tailwind, temperature etc. but if the top speed is limited by the rev limiter at 282km/h Ferrari has a problem. And if that is the case he will not have many problems proving it. If the drag would be the problem that would require expensive tests on a test track but in that case a rolling road or even a caculator and the gearing rations are enough to prove the fault.

5. In general don't believe in the claimed (real=gps) top speeds of recent or historic sportscars. Around here they tested some cars and especially speeds around and above 300km/h are often not reached. I think the Ferrari 355 claims 295km/h but usually even doesn't get to 290km/h. The same seems to be valid for the 360. The Pagani Zonda only did a little less than 320km/h in a test, the TVR top speed claims are often way of too. Don't get me wrong these are still great cars but sometimes enthousiastic marketing people seem to get a little to excited...

Greetings
Sebastian

 

Thanks, good info.

 

I can tell you that earlier on, TVR only claimed top speeds "in excess of 165mph". Real world road testing had the speedos of the TVR Cerbera at 195mph, but that probably translates to 180mph in reality. Maybe 185mph. Later on, they actually quoted a top speed number for the Tuscan, but the car they gave to the German distributor (a good friend of mine) was a dud. It gave disappointing results in magazine tests, and understandably received a poor review. In England, other TVR Tuscans did go faster, though still not at the top speeds claimed by TVR. Yes, TVR exaggerates. But the car tested in Germany was an especially bad one.

I think any manufacturer should be able to back up their claims.

 

All this heat and no data. Does anyone have real observed top speed data from a 360 or 360c or 360cs? I have seen 165 on my 360 and I felt there was a lot more left. Data please.

 

LouB is correct

The owners of Ferrari 360s and 360CS need to post how has they have gone in there cars, and what they used to measure that speed (speedometer, radar gun, etc)

Also, if does turn out that this car dosent perform as well as Ferrari claims than it should be bought back.

 

If Ferrari plays it smart, they'll come out ahead. The smart thing to do is bring the guy's car in, "fix" it, and show a road test in front of the guy and the media with the 360 traveling at substantially higher speeds than 175mph.

If Ferrari plays dumb, then their clientel is going to start wondering if paying $200k to go 175mph in a 2004 360 is such a great deal compared to paying $60k to go 171mph in a 1994 348, among other things.

And Ferrari surely doesn't want their clients second-guessing performance. That ruins the whole point of paying money to establish a racing image.

 

I would have thought the CS would be faster. How does this number compare with a measured top speed of a vanilla 360?

As far as the legality of the meaning of "top speed", I suppose one could argue that this is not a guarantee of performance, but merely an "upper ceiling" that the car is incapable of exceeding.

. . . but I'm still a bit surprised it doesn't go any faster.

 

Indicated, yes. Actually? No.