My vote for the most likely cause of the fire goes to a ruptured fuel filler neck. A fire caused by a static spark is not likely in this case due to the fact that 308 seats are leather. A static charge develops on the body when synthetic clothing fabric or fur is rubbed against synthetic seat material. Also it is not likely this time of year due to the much higher humidity than there would be in winter. Another possibility. Summer of 2000. I had just put my 308 back together and refueled it for the first time in two years. It would not start, so I put it back into the hangar where it was stored. The next morning, as I walked past the hangar to enter through the personnel door, I was greeted by a strong odor of auto gasoline (a different smell from aviation gas). I entered the hangar to see my car standing in the middle of a large puddle of gas. If the engine had been hot, there might have been a fire if the fumes had been ignited by the hot manifolds. I discovered that the bottom of one tank had several pea-sized holes from which it was leaking. The holes were apparently caused by corrosion. The flow of fuel had been delayed by application of texturing and paint to the tank prior to re-installation. I repaired the holes with epoxy, but this type of damaged should be permanently repaired with a welded-in sheet aluminum patch. Being a Euro-model might have been a factor. It might be a good idea to check 308 tanks by tapping the bottom of both tanks with an ice pick (just hard enough to punch trough a weak spot, but not enough to damage sound metal). Tom
"A fire caused by a static spark is not likely in this case due to the fact that 308 seats are leather. A static charge develops on the body when synthetic clothing fabric or fur is rubbed against synthetic seat material" You mean like the vinyl covered arm rests in a 77? Fuel Filler Fire it was!
FWIW, I bought into the leaky fuel filler hose concept, but sent the video clip to a good friend who just retired at age 50 as a Fire Chief from an urban fire department. Here is our correspondence: Silicon, baby,,, prolly silicon.... This became an issue in the early to mid 90's or so, and has progressed from there. The tire companies began manufacturing tires with more silicon and less rubber about that time. Rubber, being an organic compound, is a decent(relative) conductor to ground, of static electricity, silicon is very much less so. More silicon caused more static electrical arcs as you place a gas pump nozzle in the fill tube or move, bump, the nozzle while filling. Since the vehicle isn't grounded as well, many fires have resulted due to these arcs. Took some years of research to figure this out as it is a rather rare occurence. Same reason that lots of tires squeal when turning tightly, especially on asphalt. Haven't seen the video yet, still loading off a dial up connection, yawn,,, but I'd bet the majority of 10 to 1 it's the silicon.... Best to you. Toby I reply: > Good explanation. > > However, knowing mid-seventies Italian cars my guess is that the hose between the filler cap and the gas tank is, in the evocative words of the English "perished" and that it leaked fumes that were ignited by the hot exhaust manifold. Toby replies: I would think that the fumes reaching a hot exhaust manifold, IMHO, is a stretch. The manifold is inside the cowling and the manifold would of had to of been in the 1200 and + degree range in order to ignite the vapors by radiant heat. This could certainly occur, but a static electrical arc is really a more plausible explanation. Still downloading the video.. hoping it finishes soon.. it may better tell the tale.... Toby To which I reply: > The 308 fuel filler pipe runs very close to the tubular steel exhaust manifold. 30 year old rubber is pretty spongy. > > Plus he walked out of the flame ball which suggests vapor more than anything. > > I'm sure some explanation will come out of it. To which Toby replies: Vapor no doubt, remember, liquid does not/cannot burn... but the 30 year old rubber fill tube would have had to of been 1200 + degrees in order to ignite the fuel vapors, alongside the liquid, inside the tube... and no rubber fill tube could have survived that temperature in order to ignite the fire to appear under his hand. Finally got to see the video, the fire starts directly under his hand, which is where the vapors from filling the tank are falling out of the fill tube, heavier than air as it were and, where a static arc would be expected to be initiated. It does not look to me like any flash from the engine compartment. The fire flashes down from his hand and underneath the car,, as heavier than air gasoline vapor normally falls. It is a flash fire that is easily escapable,, of course, if you're not inhaling at the moment. He probably suffered minor 1st degree burns,, kinda like sunburn. Oops, the TV just reported second degree burns.... my wife is watching. Old rubber tires can cause these flash fires, too, it's a matter of ultimate conductivity. If an arc occurs with a proper fuel/air mixture ratio in the immediate vicinity, ergo, flash fire. I have survived these events, it's called a 'flash over', in my "former" business. Think 'fuel/air' bombs here,,, spread a whole lot of fuel over a wide area, mixing it with oxygen (perfectly), then ignite it all with some sort of detonator (static arc), and voila.... Jeeze, did you see the big bomb go off near Pensacola two years ago? YOWWWWW!, and same type of deal. AND,,, remember what the blonde talking head said at the end of the video,,, "looks like alot of static electricity behind you Kim", in regard to the local backround retards trying to get on the tube. Could be that the authorities already let them know what the ignition was, but being press clowns, had to make things appear,, not as they really are/were......... Best to you. Toby Thus endeth today's lesson from the Fire Chief.
Vapor leaking from the 300 old rotten vapor hoses in the fuel system. Red hot headers, bad electrical connections and ignition leaks. Carbed 308, anyone?
Funnily enough, the picture on that website shows a person who is laying with her head in a fireplace. Spontaneous indeed.... Slightly back on topic, are gas stations liable for this sort of thing in the case of pump failure? I've had pumps that didn't automatically shut off, causing fuel to shoot from the nozzle all over my legs. Luckily this hasn't happened while fueling the 355 yet, but I can imagine that could be pretty disasterous. I've noticed pumps typically have a label that says something along the lines of "automatic shut off not gauranteed..." -R
Dave, Look close at the video and pause it just prior to the fire. You will see a cloud of fuel that became atomized upon impact of the 355 with the 911. The wonderful example of German engineering 911Fan extoles had its fuel tank ruptured in the prior accident that had sent it off the track.
I don't think Porsche had a choice. The engine and passenger compartment already tied up 2/3 of the car and were a higher design priority than the fuel tank I would suspect. The only logical place to put the fuel tank was up front where nothing else had been mounted. I would much rather have my fuel tank in the middle of the car than at either end. From a safety point of view all it takes is hose maintenance (as mentioned here; new ones every 20 years) and they're safe. Otherwise the only way to fry in a 308 is to get the engine or the passenger compartment driven into the fuel tank. The impact that would be necessary would kill you long before the fire did. Regarding fires involving Ferraris or Porsches, I would be interested in seeing some insurance data on both. Admittedly it would be hard to separate the component failures from the ones caused by "Jew!sh Lightning" (a term referring to fires of a "suspicious" origin
If you do a search on the old board you will discover 308 fires are all too common. There have been many threads on this topic. Replace the filler hose, all under-hood fuel hoses and the 2 fuel tank connecting hoses (I did all this) and buy a Halon fire extinguisher, you will be fine. I also have a 914 (and had a 2 911's...very safe cars by the way...); the 914 is also prone to engine compartment fires, also due to old hoses. Just like the 308, the 914 got all new FI hoses and clamps...... It is kind of funny reading comments from people who have never gotten closer to a Ferrari than old Magnum PI reruns!
So I get in my 328 and begin my drive to work this AM. Gee I'm a lucky Fu&* I get to drive to work every day in a FERRARI!! The weather is great, gee, isn't life just magnificent?? (I saw the video this morning of the self-immolating 308 at around 6AM or so as I began my workday with my ritualistic visit to F-Chat.) My 13 year old son Ian is sitting next to me in the passanger seat as I head to work. As I pull into the Chevron station I think- no, I really think, as in... Should I have him get out of the car for safety reasons?? Or more simply...Should I make Ian get out of the car??? Having an aviation background I am quite comfortable with the idea of bodies disembarking until the refueling process is complete. No, I'm being over protective- what are the odds??? Plus- that was a 308, not a 328. (Never mind the fact that the exhast manifolds, and the fuel tanks, are in exactly the same place...) Card in the pump. Hey!! You're OK!! We'll give you some gas today!! Go ahead and start fossil-fueling your Italian Steed. There sits your son strapped into the passenger seat.(For safety of course!!) And then..... Fuel spraying everywhere, the automatic shutoff does not stop the flow. 1 or 2 gallons filtering down over your exhaust manifold to the pavement... You finally stop this ridiculous flow of gasoline. What caused this abberation? No freaking idea!! Commands to son to extricate himself immediately from said passenger seat, push car away from puddle of gasoline.... What the Fu&* are the odds of that?? And why the hell didn't I have him get out of the car after seeing the video earlier today?? As I would offer to him should he ask: What a bloomin' idiot!! I do not belive in an interventionist god. (Nick Cave....) But I am sure as hell left wondering tonight...At the same time I thank whomever it is that is pushing the buttons that control my life that I do not retire tonight knowing that I incinerated my son because of my own stupidity... For that would be, to me, the end. Not so Cheery, dce
Wow, that's scary and another one of those examples that makes you wonder if there is such a thing as ESP. Glad it all turned out OK. So the problem was that the fuel pump didn't shut off? Is your car like so many 308s where you have to leave the pump hanging halfway out to keep it from clicking off incessantly? I suspect that on any of these cars that were built with evaporative emissions systems that many have been "modified" and thus don't vent properly during fueling, causing the scenario I described above. That describes my car (!) but so far I have yet to dig into what's been done to the plumbing and how it may or may not affect the fueling process, but I've had fuel running down the side of my car, too from a pump that didn't shut off! Of course, I've also had a leaky filler neck hose that sent fuel running down the side of the tank when fueling, but nothing that caused the car to burst into flames.
Yes, filling my car can be a chore, it has been so bad that I have to leave to go to another pump because the auto-shutoff keeps tripping. I've learned the exact angle thoguh trial and error. I'm not sure this had anything to do with what happened yesterday though. And definitively the problem was not a leaky hose- it would actualy be the opposite- something backing up the flow of gasoline in a rather extreme way. Either that or the nozzle itself had a problem and was pouring gas from further up the nozzle than just at the tip. Cheers, dce
Erik and Dave, While working on my 308 window regulators, I saw that the arm rest covering was leather. I dont know why a 308 arm rest would be covered with vinyl and every other bit of upholstery be done in leather. Of course, my car was an 82 European and the subject car was a 77 US version. Anyway, the sig. others car, an 02 Vue, will zap the crap out of you when getting out of it, even in moderately humid weather, but the all-leather-upholstered M3 wont do a thing even in dry, winter weather. While a static spark IS possible, I would think that Washington State, in the Spring, would be just too humid to support the static-spark scenario. The lowest humidity for Seattle, yesterday, was 63%. In reading Eriks post, I dont think Toby the fire chief, understands that the filler tubes are drying out, splitting open and dumping fuel into the hot engine compartment during refueling. He seems to be thinking that some readers are suggesting that the engine compartment heat is penetrating the rubber filler tube and bringing the fueling stream to self-ignition temperature, an idea that even total neophytes could see is ludicrous. (I write this having worked 14 years in the production of military ammunition.) The conductor in tire rubber is not the elastomer or the SILICA (not silicon or silicone) but the CARBON BLACK (and not very good at that). Wood is an organic material but is a very good electrical insulator, unless it is wet. Silica, being added to modern tires, is the main constituent of glass, an excellent insulator. I dont think (I could be wrong.) the amount of carbon black in street tires has changed that much. I finally saw the video. It is not especially easy to see the progression of the fire, but it appears consistent with the split-filler-tube theory (fire starting in the engine compartment then flashing from under the rocker panel, just below the filler, AND, perhaps, simultaneously flashing into the filler tube, through the split. Its still my favorite theory. A few weeks ago there was a 360 engine and transaxle for sale on eBay which was burned on top. Maybe Ferrari is still having trouble with refueling-induced engine fires. Tom
In every 308 I have had apart, all of the black trim, arm rests, center console, dash, were all vinyl. The one I have apart now for a re-paint is the same way.
Ok, ok, I will concede the vinyl, even if it doesnt make sense. Better wear characteristics? But vinyl armrest or no, I insist that near-Pacific Washington State at this time of year is just two damp for static build-up. Anyway, a friend (thanks, Duane) watched the video and noted that, at the time of the flash, the driver had had the nozzle in the filler opening and was touching the nozzle handle for what should have been long enough to bleed off ANY static charge. Also, at the time of the flash, there was no change in his body position that would have created the required spark-gap. Thus, it HAD to be the split filler-tube scenario. QED Tom
Here is one for that cable show MythBusters. How much static electricity is needed to ignite gasoline?
Mythbusters actually did an episode regarding static electricity and filling your car at a gas station. They strapped a cell phone to a gas can and tried to ignite the can. They tried all kinds of ways but could not get the can to ignite. I'm sure there's a big difference between a can and gas in an actual car with hot exhaust manifolds and vapors. I can't remember the entire episode but they never got anything to ignite.
Mythbusters or not, the video doesn't lie. Cars can, have, and will blow up while they are being filled. Just make sure you do everthing you can so that it doesn't happen to you. If the sign says no smoking, engine shut off, or cell phones, then doggonit pay attention to what it says.
Fundamentally flawed in regard to physics and handling, but having owned/driven a few I'm impressed with how practical and well thought-out a lot of the details are. Apart from the smart gas tank design mentioned here, I don't know how they got a power top, power rear spoiler, rear engine and even a tiny back seat into that car. All that and tons of headroom, legroom and decent storage space inside. And I scratch my head how a '96 car with all of the technology mine has can go in for a dealer blank-check oil change and need ... only oil and a filter. As much as I love Ferrari's and plan to have one, all you have to is search this site to turn up a lot of examples of sub-par engineering. Catastrophic belt failures, sticky interior materials, cracked headers, stress cracks in body panels (348/355 rear deck), 308 fuse blocks, 2nd gear won't work till warm, engine fires caused by a cracked hose... Ferrari's a great car for an obsessive owner. Porsche is generally more forgiving. Ferrari is a lust object. Engineering laurels have to go to Porsche.
CURIOUS: Is it possible for the filler nozzle to actually reach in and push on the inner wall of the rubber hose filler from the inside? If so, then we would have a waterfall of petrol and fumes going into the engine compartment. Does the tip of the gas filler nozzle actually go down to where the rubber hose is on the 308 left fuel tank?
On my 308 GTS if the filler spout doesn't extend to the rubber then it is very close to it. In order for mine to take fuel at a decent rate I actually have to rotate the filler handle aft and pull the spout out until it just keeps the "flip door" open. Even if the spout didn't reach the rubber splice hose it would still spew if the hose was cracked. Another thing to consider is this, todays filler nozzles have a series of holes around the outside of the tip that actually evacuate the raw fumes from the filler pipe as you fill the car. I RARELY ever smell gas fumes while filling my 308 for this reason. If the owner of the 308 smelled raw fuel at the time of the flash over and judging from size of the fireball I will speculate that there was one h*ll of a lot more fuel around than just some stray fumes set off by an errant static discharge. Don't forget that there is a bundle of hoses surrounding the fuel pump just forward of the left rear tire that get exposed to the elements, an area directly below where the filler neck is.
I worked as a contract engineer at the 3rd largest manufacturer and distributor of petroleum dispensers. I forget the name, but the industry has an association (don't all industries?). According to the association, not one documented case of a cell phone starting a fire has ever been proven in the USA. Many have been reported, and many investigated, but none proved out to be true. 95% of the fires on modern cars at gas stations is caused by static. On older cars, of all makes, spillage was a large factor (rotten hoses, bad connections, cracked gas tanks, leaky fuel pumps, etc.). I can tell you without reservation that I sometimes talk on my cell phone while pumping gas. I have absolutely no belief that this is a risk. There are risks at the pump, but cell phones are not among them. Now that being said, I always touch a metal part (away from the opening) of the car before filling. And if I remove my hand from the filler nozzle during pumping, I always do this again. Point #1: I reviewed the video and I cant believe its static. Hes not moving. Static charges on the human body dissipate over time, and it looks as if he had been standing there quite some time. If hes not moving, hes not building up a bigger charge. So how did this magic arc happen after 10 seconds or so, if it didnt happen when he first grabbed the handle? Point #2: There is a large initial burst cloud (fireball) in and around the engine bay, from under the car, out the engine grill and to the left side of the car. Far too large an initial burst, IMHO, to have come from the relatively small amount of vapor that comes from the neck while filling. More likely, there was a significant fuel leak, in and around the engine bay, either from a failure of the filler neck hose (very likely), or possibly from the overflow hoses. Euro 308s overflow systems dump to the ground, US spec cars do not. If you fill a 308 too fast, the fuel can back up into the neck and run out of the overflow hose. How do I know this? Been there and done that (79 Euro no fires, thankfully). Point #3: I have worked on many 308s, including the two Ive owned, and all of them had crappy looking filler neck hoses (age degradation). On my cars, it was one of the first things I replaced. On at least 3 of non-owned the cars Ive worked on, I immediately recommended that the owner replace that home.
Sorry for not responding sooner..... To everyone interested in replacing hoses on their 308 I have posted two files at: http://www.ultimatepedals.com/ferrari_info.htm One file is a pdf file of scanned pages from the parts manual and the owners manual. On each of the seven pages I have marked each hose with a number. The second file is an excel table (sorted by hose ID) that references each hose number on the seven pdf file pages. Please let me know if this is unclear or if there are any other questions.
