F40 engine on dyno

Yes, they are fine! Some of these rims have been out of production for years, so I just tried to concentrate on rims that are readily available...

 

Enkeis arent available anymore ? Speelines looks almost the same no ?

 

Yes they look almost the same, but I think Rick said Speedlines are no longer available... I have not looked into Enkeis... I know OZ no longer produces F40 rims.

 

SAC (Speedline America Corp) makes an 18X10.5 F and an 18X13 R wheel. Forged magnesium, the best, lightest wheel available. The offset can be ordered for an F40 with the correct offset. About 6K/set, six weeks leadtime, any color desired. The best F40 wheel made. I currently run a 295/30-15 in the front and a 345/30 -15 rear tire. Only clearance problem is running a low ride height/ suspension bottoming, the tire rubs the bottom of the hood. Square shouldered street tires may rub the outside wheel well slightly on corners, but I run the DOT race tires on the street with no problems.

 

P.S. you will need new LM front brake ducts

 

On a side note, I love you F40 guys, and how you are not afraid of upgrading your car, unlike many 3x8 owners. G-dspeed!

 

Rick, you’d better order an extra set… Holy frickin Moly !!!
Better yet, make that a standing order.
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The name of the site was www.sacwheels.com but it has closed down. Champion Motorsport bought the remaining inventory and was selling the wheels but no longer carries the Ferrari wheels. Champion can make the wheels but it will take time. If you are in a hurry, I can sell you the silver set I own (new in box never mounted) as long as I can confirm more will be made. I would like to get another set and the minimum order is two sets. I am expecting a call next week so I will let you know. Rick, why did you say that you would not modify the bottom end if you did this again? I talked to Rod and he is investigating doing a 3.6 ltr. using a custom crank, rods, etc.. Sounds like that motor has a lot left in it once tuned. You should investigate a MOTEC ECU and the Tial 46mm wastegate.

 

IMHO I suspect what Rick is saying is that he has learned that there are CHEAPER and more RELIABLE ways of getting more horsepower out of a F40 than experimenting with changing the lower end...


While I do not know of any specifics in this case, I am always suspect of a mechanic that experiments with his customers cars at his customers expense... I suspect there is ALOT more to this story... I know Rick is a gentleman, is he trying to politely say there is probably a better way to get there?

I am not surprised Rod wants another customer to attempt (PAY) for a 3.6 conversion, he is in the business of working on Ferrari's. I would be surprised if Rod used his own money 1st to prove he can do this reliably without blowing the motor up on the dyno... before he "SOLD" his services to a customer.

I personally believe there are persons that are significantly more qualified to build an F40, with a proven track record.... Most F40 owners know who that person is.

Anybody can build a motor to make 1 or 2 runs on a dyno, but these cars are driven regularly and a F40 can be very, very reliable, why take away the fun for the aggrevation?

Mr. Knowitall, I have a learned alot from you, but in this case, is it possible you do not know it all? (or perhaps you do...) (but in any event, I suspect you still know alot!)

I do agree that the MOTEC ECU is a good choice, tell us why you reccomend the Tial 46mm wastegate, I value your opinion..

I sure wish you would take your mask off and subscribe! lol

 

Crazy (and very cool)....and I thought my 308 was stupid fast with only 520hp/420 ft-lbs torque.

 

On the subject of F40 modifications, there will always be the experts. How many of them have first hand experience? I talked to Carobu and indirectly to Michelotto (spell check please). Rick posted Rods number so I decided to give him a call. From the initial posts, I assumed that Carobu built the motor. I am on a fact finding mission most of the time, that is why I call myself MRknowitallf40 (just a joke). This forum has been quite helpful. If it were not for Chris I would have had to make my own 8 piston Brembo conversion. Chris just happened to post the right persons information and after many conversations I got the kit I wanted. I like to do as much work on my car as I can. After 29K miles I have encountered just about every problem possible. I try to educate myself about everything F40. When you are trying to market F40 modifications, you are dealing with a limited market. I will try or evaluate just about anything. I am always interested in watching people try to extract more power out of an F40 without modifying/changing the ECU. There is just a limited amount of power available. You can spend quite a bit of money with little return. A stock F40 runs so rich that about all you have to do to get more power is to turn up the boost. I believe that Chris's car was so modified when he bought it. It is tough to find guys that have actually modified the cars. I enjoyed talking to Rod, seems to know his stuff. I am interested in seeing how his project proceeds. It is obvious that Rick has the resources to complete such a project, but without a proper ECU all of the other modifications may not show their potential. Considering all of the work that was done, I was a little disappointed with the results. I am hoping to build upon what Rick has learned. It is always easier to learm from someone's mistakes/experience. If you look at some of the factory literature about the F40 LM, they quote HP figures all the way up to 830 HP at 34 psi. How much power can you really get? I'm still learning. A lot of you guys have paved the way for the modifications I currently have. I am not going to do this modification until I feel that I have all of the information I need. I would enjoy talking to anyone that has information. The problem with most Ferrari guys(mechanics) is that everything is a secret until you take out your checkbook. They don't like guys that work on their own cars either. In my discussions with Rod, he felt that the wastegate was to small. He suggested the 930 turbo wastegate. After researching all of the ricer magazines I discovered Tial. Couple of hours online and I was a self proclaimed wastegate expert. I was going to replace the wastegate anyway since service parts are hard to find. I hate to use Ferrari only parts. MOTEC has a function where you can program the boost based upon just about anything. No sense in changing the wastegate unless you get a MOTEC. A company called Road Race Engineering sells them for $460, best price on the internet. So Rick, Tate, and Rod, whats the status of this project? How about some input from the guys at Norwood's? Who can squeeze 3.6 liters into an F40 and how much power will it make?

 

As always, EXCELLENT post.... It is my opinion, you can extract more horsepower per dollar concentrating on the upper end, intake, heads, engine management, turbo's etc without trying to re-invent the wheel and starting from the bottom up...

I must admit I wish Rick would have used Tate, I think he has alot more experience with F40's than Rod does, I think Rick would have been horsepower and money ahead... In Rod's defense, I suspect his strengths are in restoration, not performance, as his cars have done very well at every national Ferrari meet.

I just get very protective of people I consider to be a potential friend or a friend when they are being used as a guinea pig at there own expense. I am not saying that this is what happened here, but we used to have a Ferrari mechanic here that always wanted to modify every Ferrari that came in the shop because he thought he knew a better way. The customer paid for every guess this guy made and the car was never the same..

The business ethics side of me tells me that if Rod wants to build a 3.6 F40 motor, he should buy the motor, build it, test it and IF it holds together, then you sell it.

 

It's always cheaper to make hp with boost, next is top-end, then way down the list is displacement....unless the engine is swapped (like a 328 engine in a 308) or there are factory parts to up displacement.

Hp/$ it's hard to beat boost and intercooler mods.

As far as what's possible, for a turbo 4v engine in street trim is 200-250 hp/liter on pump gas.

.....now if someone were to drop a TT430 engine in an F40, that's an 800-1000hp street car just waiting to happen

 

I think that the real problem is that these things have never been done before or at least they have not been published or talked about. Sometimes the owner is embarassed about how much the work costs. In many cases, the person that ends up doing the work has an interest, but not the experience. The old saying that there is no replacement for displacement still holds true. I wanted the 3.6 ltr motor since it is the largest displacement possible with the current block. I may be wrong. Lets see whats available. Tate seems to feel that 600 hp is about all that is practical with the stock turbo's. Rod feels differently. Carobu has some good products. Rod has actually built a modified F40 motor. Let's hear from the customer about his thoughts on the project. If I ask Rod (never met him before) to do something he has never done before, I expect to bear the R&D cost of the project. I have to feel that he has a better chance of doing it than I do. I am sure that that is the case here. Has Carobu ever built a modified F40 engine? Tell us about it. For a short time they advertised a MOTEC conversion for an F40 priced at about $13K. The ECU cost in that conversion was about $2.5K. They price their parts for the market, nothing wrong with that. Let's change the name of this thread to "Who can build the best F40 motor". I know that their are other guys interested in this as well. Maybe it is time to pool resources? anyone game for it? Unfortunately, this is a learning process and you have to pay to get experience. None of these guys works for free. I would be willing to commit parts and cash to explore what is the best solution. That may even involve using a chevy nascar motor. What I am doing is trying to find the most qualified person for the job. If anyone has experience with these motors tell us about it. I feel that without changing the ECU you are wasting your time. If you are an engine builder, post your thoughts-please.

 

Very nice rick, where's the nitrous??? jk

just as long as i get a ride

 

I think that is a great idea....

Tate, Rod I know you guys are friends.... let us hear your ideas!

I have to to disqualify myself here a bit, Tate is a friend of mine, but I do not know Rod except by reputation and he is completing a restoration on a friend of mine's Ferrari...

So... gentleman, tell us your ideas, and tell us how many F40's you have actually built successfully.

 

With a sey of factory turbos and a pressure regulator you can pull another 100 Hp out of a stock F40. I heard that your car made 740 ft-lbs because the wastegate stuck. (what was the boost pressure at that point) With a MOTEC you can have traction control as well as limit the boost pressure vs. RPM. You can even limit boost depending what gear you are in. That's how you make the trans survive and the motor live. For road racing it is better to generate higher torque through displacement than boost pressure. Running high boost levels is going to cause a lot of tuning problems. Running a Tubi requires the wastegate to be modified to allow it to open faster and more controllably. Do you have this modification on your car? What are you going to do to the wastegate circuit? Are you happy with the result of the modifications and what are your tuning plans? What did all of this cost? I would like to see this 700 HP or more. Were you guys using race gas on the dyno?

 

I have not dynoed my F40 in a while, but these were my last numbers...

482hp @ 6,700rpm

433 lb torque @ 5,600rpm

these are on a Dyno jet, and I must say this is BEFORE we dialed in the cams...

Absolute barometric pressure 29.03

Vapor pressure 0.073 in. Hg.

Intake Air Temp 65.1 F

correction factor 1.00

If you use a 15% loss at the rear wheel, we are somewhere around 554hp at the crank, that is a 76hp increase over stock.

This is with LM's, Carobu Chip, K&N's, Tubi Comp, Tubi test pipes...

This was on 91 octane pump fuel...

 

Yor are correct that I used the boost to increase Hp. The small brass valve that was on Chris'c was a pressure regulator located in the manifold pressure line. Same trick as a 930 turbo. Installing a pressure regulator stops the computer from seeing max boost. You let the sensor read no more than 17 PSI and the motor can actually run as high as 24-25 with the stock turbos. Have you ever had the ECU shut down your motor and cut the fuel? Sounds like the motor is going to explode. You have to reduce the spring tension on the diaphram. This allows the wastegate to open more quickly and more easily. With the Tubi exhaust, the turbos spin up more quickly and the wastegate cannot react fast enough so the engine goes into an overboost situation shutting down the motor temporarly. There are many opinions on how to modify the wastegate, weaker spring(custom made), spacer in wastegate body, or machine the wastegate housing to reduce the spring preload. Backing off of the lead screw does not produce enough to reduction to do the job on it's own. On a regular turbo system the manifold pressure along determines wastegate opening. On an F40 the computer decides when to allow the wastegate to open. I do not know it the guys that burn chips can alter all of mapping parameters. I just prefer to have as much control as possible. With the MOTEC, you buy a wastegate with the lowest pressure spring avaliable say 2 psi. When the wastegate control valve opens if the pressure is over 2psi the wastegate activates. I don't know what the F40 lower limit is but it is under 17 psi. The wastegate activated based on a number of parameters like coolant temp, manifold pressure, etc. I don't fully understand it and I believe that few people do. That is why there are various opinions on how to make more power. According to Rod the map is only 2 dimensional. I believe that it is based on throttle position and maniflold pressure. Really 80's technology. A MOTEC will also data log all of your parameters, tell you when you have a bad signal, and warn you when something is out of spec. You can monitor and diagnose just about any problem. I bet that there is about 100 hp in a properly tuned F40, but you wont get there with the factory ECU (either of them). I didn't want to do the 3.6 until I had the MOTEC since I felt that I would not be able to properly tune the motor. I would rather have a greater displacement motor running lower boost the stock motor running higher boost. The bigger motor should be less stressed to produce the same power level. I would like to start with the biggest motor possible and lower the boost accordingly. What was the HP reading at 28 psi?

 

maybe the four liter 308 guys should chime in!