comments on my 4wd/AWD bigotry ?

kids stuff?

What do you need it for?

Going off roading..... then get a real 4x4.

Don't want to get stuck in the snow? Then, if you know how to drive, an awd car should be just fine. They both are good. It's just a matter of what you need. If you need to drive a MB sedan in the snow then get the 4matic.

I thought Minn. had a very gd. snow removal program. Are you driving on unplowed snow or plowed?

Another solution is to purchase an old Jeep Grand Cherokee for cheap and drive it in bad weather and select your other car on what you want not its snow capabilities.

 

Land Rover lost it's way in recent years. Coincidentally enough, Ford took it over from BMW...

However that may (have) be(en), they did scrap the Discovery and the LR3 is gaining considerable momentum.

 

Quattro is the way to go. I drive an A4 and its great, itd really kick ass in the snow..

 

we have an A4 with quattro and a jeep with quadradrive. they are both damn good in the snow. the boss prefers the A4 but i prefer the jeep. i had a jeep with the thing that preceded quadradrive (quadratrak?) and that wasn't as good as the audi in the snow.

the A8 is an impressive car. consider picking up a lightly-used one to save a bundle - they depreciate like snot.

i have a buddy who swears by his rovers - i think he's on his fifth in a couple decades. they've never really done it for me.

all that said, i can't answer your interesting questions - and i'm curious to know those answers myself. please keep us posted if you find answers elsewhere!

doody.

 

If it's an only car and has to be 4x4 or AWD there is only one way I would go. Toyota Landcruiser. I've got 50,000 100% trouble free miles on my 2000 model and there's very little it won't tackle off road. The bonus is that on paved streets it's civilized.

 

And if you want a little more luxury, get the Lexus LX470, which is the same truck, but a little nicer inside w/ more bells & whistles.

 

I used to drive an A4 2.8 sport. The response of that thing in the snow was telepathic. It was like the car knew what I wanted it to do, and did it. In the dry it wasnt that obvious that it was AWD except for when you got on the gas a little earlier leaving a corner and it pulled you through.

 

Some articles I bookmarked a while back when I was wondering about 4WD vs. AWD, SUV vs. Sedan etc.

http://auto.consumerguide.com/Articles/index.cfm/act/featuredarticles/article/FA_4WD.html

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/040414.htm

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/tw/awdsedans.htm

http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/awd.html

Been driving big SUVs for some time, and finally getting fed up with the mileage - currently looking for a good AWD sedan.

 

You cannot neglect the Toyota Land Cruiser/Lexus LX 470 if you want a true 4x4. The Landcruiser is one of the most respected, if not the most repsected off roader in the world. They simply go and go and go and go. Its the only vehicle to reach the NORTH and SOUTH poles and be used there. You get top notch quality and luxury with both as well.

As for AWD, the SH-AWD system in the new Acura RL is probably the most advanced in the world, as it not only distributes power front to rear, but also from left to right wheel. No other system does that. The car has gotten good reviews from the press but the Acura badge, high price and bland looks are keeping it off peoples shopping lists. Also, under normal driving conditions, the bias is 70% front, 30 rear.

Audi, clearly with Quattro is the AWD leader, Suburu is great too with their system. Porsche clearly has sold AWD for sometime now, debuting in the 959 I think, ahead of its time.

 

There is a lot more to this than can be written here as there are a ton of variations, and we don't even want to start about the aftermarket, but:

4WD implies a shiftable transfer case (2wheel drive high, neutral, 4wheel drive high, 4 wheel drive low). You can run in 2H all day long and then shift into 4H or 4L depending on the speed, traction, etc. It's a direct mechanical link between the the transmission via a set of gears in the t-case and then the driveshafts to diffs. It's usually accompanied by a limited slip diff of some sort for the rear axle. Example: In my wrangler the power comes through the manual trans, through the manual t-case, through the driveshaft, and into the diff. It has a locking rear diff so in 2H with the diff locked each rear wheel will get 50% of the engines power (excluding drivetrain losses). No ifs, ands, or buts. In 4H or 4L each rear wheel will get 25% of the power, the front will get the other 50% distributed depending on which wheel has traction (no locking diff up front).

AWD can be thought of as the automatic transmission of 4WD systems. In their "t-case" they usually have a series of wet clutches, like an auto trans, that distributes power btw the front and rear diffs at varying degrees depending on traction. You've heard "it can send up to 90% of power the front wheels" etc in car ads. There's no low range, just 1:1 like 4H is in a 4WD. The clutches let the rear or front output slip depending on traction basically, that varies the front to back power. Since they have open diffs (remember My Cousin Vinny when he gets stuck in the mud, one tire spins the other stands still) they limit side to side traction by means of the brakes. When one wheel starts spinning faster than the opposing wheel (left rear vs right rear) the ECU applies that brake (uses the ABS sensors and pumps) stopping the wheel from spinning so all the power doesn't go to it. Then the wheel with traction doesn't just sit still, it still gets a % of the rear power and pushes the car. Example: audi A4, Mercedes 4matic, one of the Jeep grand cherokees (can't remember the t-case, the other two models of Grands are 4wd), Mercedes M Class, BMW X5, etc.

That's basically it, on road in the snow, etc. AWD is just as good, theoretically better since it can vary power from front to back (that's a big theoretically though because a lot of times it doesn't vary quickly enough, and the parts wear, etc.). Off-road, even the best AWD will get trounced to hell by an average 4WD system.

Most advanced 4WD system you can buy at a normal dealership is still the Mercedes G-wagon, locking front, center, and rear diffs. It's heavy and cumbersome, but the system is pretty impressive. Excluding running dunes where the Hummer H1 shines, the Jeep Wrangler (Rubicon) is still far and away them most capable off road overall. The most advanced AWD is hard to say, but the Acura as mentioned is supposed to be tops this year.

Consider AWD station wagons (Mercedes, etc.), if I had kids I'd be real into them. We have the 4matic on a sedan and up to 5-6" of snow on the road it goes just as well as my Jeep for all intents and purposes. Considering the jeep has 32" tires, 4.11 gears, a locking rear diff, etc. etc. that says a lot. Plus, the Mercedes gets 26mpg on the highway, rides like a car, performs like a car in the dry. To be honest, unless you have a boat to tow, work in construction, or have some specific purpose where you need a 9,000lb tow rating and 4,000lb carrying capacity, SUVs are a friggin waste of resources. Plus, they suck to drive. Besides towing, an AWD station wagon does 100% of what an X5, M-Class, Tahoe, Trailblazer on the road. And for that one time a year that you buy a couch, why not just rent a truck for $19 from U-Haul, and have something nice to drive the other 364 days. Someone who buys an SUV solely because "it's good in the snow" is ill-informed, there are much better choices to fit that bill if it's the only criteria.

This all just $.02 from someone who spends WAY too much time under his jeep. And rememeber, TIRES are the biggest change, AWD, 4WD, 2H, 4L means nothing if you don't have good M+S or snow tires on.

 

Bret, excellent post.

I agree 100% about the tires. I very rarely see another Land Cruiser with the street tires I have. 285/75 Bridgestone Dueler Revos.

Further, I have NEVER seen another cruiser with the offroad tires I use. 34x10.5-16 Super Swamper LTBs. However, with the tires, the thing is virtually unstoppable.

Most SUVs and trucks have ultra crappy street tires on them because the most dirt they usually see is the parking lot at the kids soccer game.

 

Yeah really with SUVs. The handling characterisitcs are atrocious, yet people line up to buy them when they really have no reason b/c an AWD car (Subie, Benz, BMW) with snow tires would outperform their stock SUV anyday of the week in any snow storm. I mean be honest, how often is there 2ft of snow on the road, they plow the instant it starts snowing nowadays. Us getting the 4matic was an eye opener for me, there wasn't a single day in the last two years that it couldn't go out in the thick of the storm no problem with the stock M+S tires, with snows it would be a beast. And it is no longer "cool" to have an SUV with gas prices hitting $2.35 around here for regular.

I get around the one tire issue by running a set of BFG All-Terrains, 32x10.5. Great on the street and then throw a set of chains on off road, goes(and rides) like a tank. Chains vs. no-chains is mind boggling. We have a place in the mountains, really in the boonies (generator for power, etc.). Our "driveway" is a 2 mile old logging road off an already small quasi-paved road. The only thing that makes it up is the Jeep with chains, and our 6 wheel drive that can ride on top of the snow. Dad's pickup, the quad, friends' SUVs, etc. all have to stay down the bottom. This is why people have off-road vehicles, SUVs are just a joke that try to market into it. And, like I said, I don't get it because my jeep sucks compared to a car on the street. Not worth it IMO unless you need it. And if you ever walked 2 miles in hip-deep snow, you see how you can "need" something.

 

Could not agree more.

While I don't see many logging roads, I travel through a lot of clear cut property and OEM tires would just get shredded. Chains are incredible! I'd love to try them on the cruiser, but we don't get enough snowfall to warrant it.

I'm keeping mods mild for now as the rig is a daily driver for me. However, with gas prices increasing and resale values of 6500+lb gas hogs in a freefall I'm looking for a rough example to turn into a trail rig.

My favorite example of a modified 100 series Land Cruiser so far.
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We keep a couple of older vehicles around for bad weather,
a 91 BMW 325ix all wheel drive, and an 89 Range Rover.
Both have been so fantastic over the years that I have never thought of replacing them.

 

As far as AWD sedans go, it seems that the Audi and M-B versions are highly regarded (as well as the Acura from I'm reading). I'm pretty sure BMW only offers AWD on the 3-series which is too small for me (I wish there was an AWD E39 5 series)....any experience or comments on the Volvo S60 AWD?