Fisichella and Webber to swap

Agree ... one mistake and you are out.

The only thing it did give us is the guy is fast and was either lucky or he did not make any significant mistakes.

Pete

 

Heidfeld put that turd on pole and took it to the podium a couple of times.

Sepang was a 50/50 case between Fisico and Webber.

Basically in every race he made at least one crucial mistake. Lately he has made less mistakes but didn't achieve any better results.

 

I don't know who has the most first lap shunts this year, but Webber has got to be up there. Going into the first corner of a GP he's like a run away train, God have mercy if you're close enough for him to nail you. And I like the guy, but it's getting harded to like him when he's never on the track.

HK was at the USGP, they did a two minute interview on Speed with him and he was really personable, big smile on his face, joking around with the announcer. Polar opposite of Mika and Kimi.

 

Mark showed some ability by qualifying the Jaguar up the grid a few times. Unfortunately that's all he's really done.

 

Webber made no error in Sepang. None at all. That would close the points gap.

He has beaten Heidfeld handily in qualifying.

He has made mistakes, yet is very close to Heidfeld...why? Is Heidfeld just bad?

 

Personally I think Webber's move was ill-advised but some say it was just a racing incident.

Webber outqualified Heidfeld 7 times and Heidfeld outqualified Webber 5 times. (excluding Indy results) Hardly beating him "handily".

Webber has finished ahead of Heidfeld 6 times and Heidfeld finished ahead of Webber 6 times. Nick shouldn't be embarassed by this but the team's number one driver should.

After looking at the stats I must admit Webber has done better than my memory serves me. But he has not outperformed Nick by anything but the smallest of margins. IMO he has not made the most of his time with Williams.

 

There you go using logic and quantitative measurements

This supports my opinion. Thanks Jameel

 

Ok.

I have 9-4 in Webber's favor. Even more telling is the fact that Webber's average grid position is 7, while Heidfeld's is 9.8...that is not even remotely close. That is similar to the gap between Button & Sato or Schumi & Rubens.

What are you talking about? Team's #1 driver? Williams has never been deemed 'unfair' between teammates. Perhaps the most fair team on the grid. And you act as Heidfeld is not fast. He beat Kimi. He beat Massa. He beat Frentzen. Not exactly 'slow' guys.

I think both drivers have made mistakes. But to call for Webber to be kicked out of F1(many people have said that)....that's just lunacy. This Williams car is easily the worst they've made in the past 10 years (99 was more of a driver problem than anything else...).

 

This just puts Webber in a worse light that he's started on average 2.8 spots above his team mate but his teammate has finished the races overall better than he has.

Its pretty clear that Webber is/was the #1 driver and Heidfeld the #2.

I dont think he should be kicked out but he certainly is not a top shelf driver. Rather than looking for justification of why he should be booted out, I would say what is the justification for putting him up on a pedestal? He hasn't done ANYTHING of major note in F1. He outperformed one of the worst ever drivers on the grid while at Minardi, he moved to Jag where he generally did better than his team mate but not THAT much better, and both of those teammates weren't exactly future WDC's. He got a further chance in a top team (which has fallen to a mid-pack team) but he has failed to show anything. What has MW ever done other than qualified the Jag higher up than most people thought on a few occasions? I can't think of a single great drive from the man, and I can't imagine why Renault would ever want him next to Heiki.

 

Well, he has made mistakes. I never said he didn't. He is fast though, I don't know why people are calling for him to leave F1.

Ok, and how, at all, does this affect their driving?

I don't think he should be on a pedestal. I think he is a good leader and a fast driver (although he has erred multiple times).

I believe he is getting undue criticism because he was hyped *extremely* heavily during 02-04. He has had a reasonably decent season in, at best, a midpack(which is characterized by good performances and then horrible performances) car.

 

Okay ... lets think about what we are all saying, which is much of the same with a bit of confusion stirred in.


This is how it is:

1. Webber has out performed Heidfield in qualifying. Even if he has not actually out qualified him, Webber has been carrying more fuel of the two, thus Nick's lap was only faster because of the lighter fuel load. The actual time difference has been minimal when Nick has beaten Webber ... in most cases.

Thus Webber is FASTER!

2. Heidfield has out performed Webber in the races. Well done Nick, but remove the early mistakes Webber was making and this would be massively around the other way. But Webber DID make those mistakes and they have been very costly for Williams, BMW and himself. He should have been on the podium at Canada!, for example.

Thus Heidfield is better at getting race points.


I though believe that the reason Nick has out performed Webber in the races is because Nick does not race hard ... he just cruises like RB, Fisi, RS, etc. This has been the reason he has out scored Kimi, etc. too ... consistency, and this does NOT excite team managers, raw speed must come first.

BUT I do have an issue with Webber making too many mistakes!. To be a successful racing driver you must drive on the limit and make very few mistakes ... Canada's mistakes were enormous and very amaturish (from my couch ).

Now ofcourse if the car is unbalanced the chances of making a mistake are much higher ... and again with Webber's push on racer driving style he will find this issue before Nick's 'lets cruise and see what happens attitude' will.

The problem is Webber needed to make his mark this year ... and hasn't, and if he is being pushed to another team, well he is stuffed!

He really had only one chance, and unfortunately for the many Nick fan's, Nick has had his too (infact many) and while he is wonderfully consistent, he lacks that raw speed ... just like RB.
Pete

 

PSK, I think you are too hard on both of them. I doubt Sir Frank would prefer to bring Pizzonia up the ranks to fill Webber's spot. Even if he did perform semi-poorly this year and is a mid pack driver......well, Williams is a mid pack team at the moment. I'm sure BAR would take Webber over Sato...

 

Yes probably ...

I am extremely gutted with Webber's year this year, and thus probably kicking him when he is down.

Pete

 

Oh don't worry, we'll probably all be bashing on Scott Speed if he doesn't get pole every race and lead every lap to the win in a Red Bull.

 

My prediction before the season started was that Webber will not perform as everyone had hype him up to be. He does not have the killer instinct to be a wdc.

He's a great test driver though.

 

Certainly good enough to be on the grid...

 

Interesting how we all can see things so differently ... the one thing I really think he has is the killer racer instinct ... ... he is many time over aggressive.

Oh well, if we all thought the same it would be too simple
Pete

 

I agree absolutely. Webber is *very* fast to me. He just screws up...a lot.

 

I think he's probably too aggressive as well, he tends to drive with his mirrors and sometimes has crashes that could have been avoided. It also seems that either some of his speed is gone or Heidfeld is way faster than he's ever gotten credit for. Heidfeld's racecraft seems to be better than Webber. It seems that Webber is rattled by Heidfeld, pushing too hard and making mistakes.

 

This could well be true.

Pete

 

I never knew why Heidfeld got fingered as being a slow driver. He always seemed quick to me. Edged a 'win' over Kimi in 2001. Some can say that it was only Kimi's rookie year...however, *all* the modern greats were blisteringly fast their rookie year. Prost, Senna, & Schumi...

 

Heidfeld is a RB. Have you, for example, ever seen Heidfeld performing miracles in a car, right on the edge and raggedly fast ... over driving the car to make his mark or just to lift the car???

We have seen Kimi do that (even in first year), many times ... we have seen Prost (yep!), Senna and ofcourse MS. We have also seen Webber do that.

That is what team managers get all excited about when looking for talent ... not consistency (and just points :yawn: ) and on rail driving. That comes with a championship lead and maturity ... and what has held Heidfeld back IMO. It is a pity I guess ... but that's racing.

Pete

 

Kimi did miracles in his first year....but Heidfeld didn't...*in the same car*?!?!?

BTW, I think Heidfeld as an RB...but a much faster RB.