Official Turkish Grand Prix Race and Results Thread **** SPOILIER ****

All this talk about loss of downforce on the Jordan is a bunch of baloney. Talk to anyone whose driven one of those sh*tboxes (Heidfeld, Pantano, .............)

....THE CAR HAS NO DOWNFORCE..it barely qualifies as an F1 car it so slow and ill handling.

Jon

 

I think the point is that when you lose the wind over the wings (downforce) you also lose your braking ability. So, when JPM got in front it's not that the jordon accelerated, but no longer could brake. anyway...who cares...it added interest to the race!

 

The JPM/TM incident is probably 50/50. Having been on a track competitively its hard to totally just let a guy go by without any sort of closeness - its against your instincts as a driver. Having said that, Monteiro probably should have not tried to "race into the corner" with Montoya as he did. There was no way he was going to get the spot, and there was no point in making it look close. There was little or no point in him even driving 10/10ths into that corner as he apparently did. The only thing that could come from it was a bad outcome, which is exactly what happened.

On the other hand, JPM doesn't need to cut over like that. Then again, it may be that Monteiro did not yield and Montoya had to cut over and get on the brakes to be able to carry the speed he was running through that corner.

Monteiros excuse IMO was kinda weak. He said the drivers had agreed not to dive around under braking. I doubt he was thinking of that agreement when he plowed into JPM's car.

There are a few guys on the grid who dont understand that winning is about consistency and minimizing risks. The more often you roll the dice, the more often you come up unlucky. I think that can be said very much so of Montoya, Webber, Sato and others this year. JPM was way out in front with only a few laps to go. I think he was something like +15 sec over Alonso? He didn't need to be pushing that hard. He could have run 4 seconds a lap slower than Alonso (which is huge) and still won easily. Thats where the maturity and non-risk-taking comes in. Sometimes you need to push for all its worth. Sometimes you can just let sit back and cruise. Making the wrong decision leads to disaster, as JPM found out (for the eleventeenth time) this past weekend.

 

So how is that JPM's fault (my point )???

So if you intend to pass somebody you have to NOT move over until there is a 5 metre gap or something?? ... rediculous, OR not brake in front of another car ... der!

JPM did nothing wrong! ... yes he may have put himself in a risky position, but so does anybody racing with that guy on the track.


Jordon's get passed constantly, they should understand all that and effectively get off the fncken track when any other car is anywhere near them. Just like any other car that is getting lapped. If you are being LAPPED you are useless and thus have NO right affecting the result of a race ... get out of the fncken way - PERIOD!

Pete
ps: Jon ... LOL , and yes they are pathetic. Imagine working for that team, you racing career is completely dead, period.

 

Agree ... and most of those drivers have yet to win, and thus learn this leason and thus perfectly understandable. JPM has struggled this year and thus does have some pressure to finish as close as possible to Kimi ... otherwise he will become a DC in the team.

BTW: It took Mansell many (way to many) years to learn this.
Pete

 

Hey last time I checked Crack is an illegal substance, stop smoking that ****, even with someone that has less brain cells than most, it will effect you!!!!!!

 

...and trying to stop it with reduced downforce. The person who created that situation is responsible for the outcome. My point is not that JPM did something wrong; its that he caused the situation.

I wasn't in the driver's meeting but have been led to believe Montoya is the one driver who has been most vocal about drivers pulling exactly the same stunt he pulled on the Jordan. Talk about surprises.

 

Precisely.

Back markers have to play along, but when there is no pressure the lapping guy should avoid any risk. If he does take the unnecessary risk, he has to take some blame for causing the situation. No need for JPM to cut in front of the Jordan and no need for MS to cut off Webber.

 

Okay guys I think you are missing a vital point, and this might have something to do with many of you having never raced at all and thus your only experience is track days, etc. Now I am not trying to patrionise but you are not understanding the responsibility that a 'lapped' and thus OUT of the race driver has on their shoulders.

When you are being lapped, especially like a Jordan for the N'th time, you do NOT figure in the race results and thus as far as the law of motor racing goes should effectively get out of the way of ALL cars that are still racing.

Now this does not mean wandering all over the track ... no, no, you must hold your line, but it DOES mean you need to think about your track position and how it will affect the guys trying to lap you. Again you are requested NOT to affect the result of the race, as you are being lapped.


Thus what did our hero in the Jordan NOT do right?


He did NOT access the situation and make the correct and right adjustments to ensure he did not hinder the passing car.


What do I mean by this?


Our hero in the Jordan should have been watching his mirrors, seen the much faster and still racing McLaren/JPM coming up. He then should have used his brain and thought to himself with the closing speed of JPM and my current speed it is going to be tight for the next corner ... and thus because I am being lapped the n'th time I should adjust my car to remove myself from the equation.

Thus when JPM was beside him ... the Jordan driver SHOULD have bled some throttle OFF, thus ensuring there would be absolutely no issue for the next corner.

A lapped driver by no means at all should force a still racing driver to take a tighter line for a corner ... unless it is unavoidable. Our hero had a huge long straight to think about this and did NOTHING.

When I started racing I used to get lapped all the time, infact my first seasons goal was to improve myself so I would not get lapped. Thus you know full well your car and your own performance when you start the race and thus it is NOT a shock when the first cars start lapping you and you DO infact have a large role in ensuring you do NOT affect the race results, and yes I have minorly bled off some speed to ensure the passing and still racing driver clearly knows that the track is his.


Thus yes JPM took a risk, but in this case it was 100% the Jordan drivers responsibility to ensure that the pass was safe as this was not a pass for position, infact not a pass at all ... effectively JPM should NOT have known the Jordan was there (and thus lap times, etc. should have been as though there was a clear track). The Jordan driver SHOULD have lifted a little to ensure JPM was passed way before the corner.


Now I guess you (from your couches) have not thought it through, but our Jordan driver let his team down and the race officials BY damaging his car and affecting the race, when he by the rules of the sport had a responsibility not too. And if I was JPM I would have a wee chat with this man and his team ... as I am sure Bernie or Max would be too.

Anyway you believe what you want to believe ... ... but please atleast think about my comments if you ever do brave a proper race.
Pete
ps: And if you think that it is too much to ask of a F1 driver to think about his track position, etc. ... then well again I suggest you get off your couch and try some racing. It is pretty easy in most cases to think about this stuff, after all less issues than driving on a public road, no traffic lights, no pedestrians, no opposing traffic (except maybe for a spinning Jordan ), etc.

ps2: And yes if the driver you are lapping is a *****head like this Jordan driver then you DO have to sacrifice your lap/race ... but you should not have to. Thus IMO 80% of the blame for this incident rests on the Jordan drivers shoulders as he put his LAPPED car in this situation, when he could have easily not.

BTW: Tifosi, regarding: but when there is no pressure the lapping guy should avoid any risk. There is always the pressure of keeping in the groove ... loose that and you risk an off, etc.

 

Pete, I understand your point and in a perfect world you're right. However this is F1, a not so perfect world. A world in which for instance Jean Todt took Peter Sauber by the side for the MS-Villeneuve finale and asked that the Sauber (lapped or not) would block the Williams. At the same token Frank Williams went to Ron Dennis to make sure the McLarens would block the Schue.

Obviously none of that came into play with neither Webber nor Monteiro, but my point remains: Passing a back marker should be without risk, but it never is. Even if there is no malice in play, the guy might be asleep at the wheel or unexperienced or drive a barely controllable lemon (all of the above apply).

PS: Now if only MS' Ferrari in Suzuka 1999 had been as wide as Webber's cars often are, things might have turned out differently. But that's another story.

 

Agree, but the FIA should blame and penalise correctly so these idiot drivers learn. Monteiro should get a 2 race ban IMO.

Thus Monteiro should be the one taking the blame for being inexperienced or barely able to drive.

Look maybe I'm becoming a JPM fan, but I have to eat humble pie a bit and recognise the fact that the guy has been bloody fast in the last few races and does not need drivers of the lack of talent like Monteiro taking him out. Thus I just think you are all unfairly nailing JPM ... he was not racing for a final point in the WDC to win everything (and thus needing to be careful), he was out there racing hard to show Ron Dennis that he is no DC ... note he drove absolutely perfectly at Silverstone so knows how to when needs arise.

This race though he was getting another beating by Kimi ... and thus was hard on it trying to finish as close to Kimi as possible. This is critical if he wants to be taken seriously by Ron.

The fault for this incident lies with allowing drivers such as Monteiro to actually share the track with racing drivers ... who is to blame? ... probably the FIA as it is too easy to get a Super license (after all Rossi without ONE single single seater race will have one soon!!!!! ... crazy).

Monteiro caused this accident!, by being so completely busy keeping the Jordan on the track that he had no brain capacity left ... thus if he is finding it that difficult he is not up to the grade.
Pete

 

Not much to say here, other than great race by ol' Jense Button, driver of the day IMO, showing that overtaking is possible in the modern GP car.

With that, I will leave you guys to your bickering....

 

The race I watched had heaps of passing and some great battles, and yes JB did good.

All in all nearly a perfect result for McLaren and Kimi
Pete

 

Not really. All in all nearly a perfect result for Renault and Alonso

If you like to eat humble pie, then do it for your beginning of the season forecasts regarding Webber. While I do the same for my overestimating the Saubers. Bon appetit!

 

The whole Williams Team's lack of performance has been baffeling.

On that note, I think the FIA needs to monitor this low tire pressure situation esp. with the Michelin runners. First Indy, now this. If the teams are creating a hazard for the drivers there might need to be a set minimum pressure.

 

Tifosi that is why I said nearly ... .

If JPM had finished 2nd then it would have been as perfect result as McLaren could control ... they ofcourse cannot force Alonso NOT to finish

Pete

 

Ah, c'mon Pete, you can do better than that. Use your imagination or just think back: MS vs Hill, MS vs Villeneuve, Ayrton vs Prost, Prost vs Ayrton

There ARE ways to stop Alonso from scoring points.

 

having just watched the race last night courtesy of tdf360, thanks again Gary!!!!!!!!!...

those who defend mikey in that incident with webber are prejudiced plain and simple. i dislike webber, but in this case maikey was just showing yet again what a poor loser and poor sportsman he is. he can not lose with any grace or dignity.

 

LOL ... no thanks

Agree and a major flaw in his character. All people have flaws, but this one is a biggie and sad

Pete