Suggestions for weapons for self-defense (Katrina related)

Ah, the "Noble Savage" myth as applied to Tsunami regions...How quickly we forget that the "locals" in Indonesia were shooting each other, kidnapping children, raiding aid stations, etc.

Are you going to have damage from a big storm even in the richest country in the world?! Of course.

In this case, you have a "tale of two cities," too. Mobile, hit by the stronger East side of Hurricane Katrina's eye, remained organized and civil. Mobile's evacuation plan worked. It's pre-planning worked. It's post-disaster plan is working even now.

In neighboring New Orleans (hit by the weaker West side of the eye of Katrina), however, the locals hadn't been educated on hurricane preparedness, weren't evacuated, and whatever post-disaster plan they may have had either didn't work or wasn't implemented.

Well, as a citizen you can bury your head in the sand and chastise and whine that everyone should always behave...or you could hope that you had Mobile's city leadership instead of New Orlean's cronies...or you might take **personal** responsibility for your own survival.

Of course, in today's world, taking **personal** responsibility rather than demanding that government take care of you is passe in many areas of the world, so it's hardly surprising that you express surprise...

...but the urge to survive is primal...deeply embedded in our psyches.

Well, how do you survive if you are caught in a disaster area where the local government turns out to be inept? For one thing, it helps if you have your own stores of food and water that can get you through a brief catastrophe.

That won't make you popular at a Manhattan cocktail party, but a trivial amount of money and effort in advance can store a week's worth of food and water so that you aren't stuck standing in line at the Superdome waiting for some government flunky to give you a ration of water and a bag of potato chips.

A big dog or two can help insure that human predators (who no doubt made no such preparations of their own) don't take what is yours...ditto for a simple firearm that's handy for personal self-defense.

But hey, you don't have to take personal responsibility. Many people in New Orleans certainly didn't. You can roll the dice with your life and hope that such natural disasters never happen to you, or that if they do that you'll be in an area run by Mobile-esque leaders.

It's only in the off chance that you get caught by both a natural disaster AND inept local leadership that your lack of personal responsibility would ever be exposed to the potential harshness of predators, after all, so the odds are that you can continue with your current mindset without any dire consequences.

Just don't be surprised that not everyone in the world is as willing as you to trust their lives to a mere hope that nothing bad ever happens.

 

18.5" shotgun will get you some time here in California.

Art

 

No.

There was lots of killing, raping, and looting there too.


As for weapons, I have a few. A 12 gauge shotgun; a 9mm carbine with 30 round magazines, a .308 Springfield M21 rifle, and some pistols. If I had to just pick one do everything weapon, however, it would likely be an M16 clone with a foldaway stock, as others here have suggested.

 

I am not surprised, but why? What is the legal barrel length and why not conform to the federal standards?

 

Califeloney operates on a different playing field when it comes to firearms, of which violates the 2nd Amendment as a whole.

 

Omar: I have a real Hk G3 semi. 11/62 date on the receiver. This is not a Hk 41



8K retail


I suppose they can be found for the low 7's ?

 

Some things to consider if youare preparing for when the balloon goes up.

What are your primary needs...are you defending your home or do you have to forage or a combination?

What kinds of knives do you have?

First aid?

Medicine to sustain yourself in case of chronic disease.

Barter items...money might not be the basis of exchange/
Sanitary supplies and knowledge of waste disposal methods.
Water purifcation devices, mechanical and chemical.

Emergency rations...how many for how long...what if you have to cary them with you?
Adaptable clothing?
Comtinuing sources of ammo? How much can you carry?

Stashes hidden along your evac routeS?

Safe and fortified destination?

Many more things to consider, but these should keep you busy for a while and hopefully stress just getting a gun or a few is not close to solving the problem.e

 

If the SHTF, first thing you should try to do is get the heck out of town. That said:

1. You live in NJ, one of the must anti-2nd Amendment states in the country. IIRC, they have an assault weapons ban independent of the federal one that expired that prevents you from buying AR-15, AK variants, and many rifles used by militaries around the world. In addition, I believe they don't even allow hollow points in pistol calibers (maybe none at all).

2. While AR-15s, G3s, and AKs make fine battle rifles, I doubt their capabilities for home defense...serious over penetration problems. Outside the home, they're obviously too big to carry. Even if you're only going to carry it outside during disaster times, as someone mentioned before, that's only going to attract negative attention to you from the bad guys, and probably from cops and national guard folks who aren't close enough to talk to you.

3. For home defense, shotguns with smaller size shot work great. More projectiles mean a greater chance of hitting something, if you hit someone they do serious damage, and with smaller pellets you don't have to worry as much about a stray shot overpenetrating and killing a loved one in an adjoining room or going through your house into neighbor's house and killing them.

3. For concealed carry, you want something light, since you'll be carrying it around all day and very reliable. Since you live in NJ, you don't have to worry about this since the chances of you being able to get a concealed carry permit are about as likely as winning the lottery.

4. Full-auto for home defense is pretty dumb. Plus, they're really expensive. $15k for the gun and a good amount of painful paperwork, including getting your local chief of police to sign off on the idea. I can't imagine this being easy to do in NJ.

5. What ever you eventually get, I recommend you starting of with a .22, like a Ruger Mk II (semi auto handgun) and getting instruction in using it first, for several reasons. You will need to practice...shooting accurately isn't as easy as many people imagine. .22s kick less; this will help keep you from developing bad habits that often develop with those that learn to shoot with more powerful guns. Also, .22 ammo is about a tenth the price of most centerfire ammo. Many guns chambered for .22 are relatively cheap.

6. You just graduated law school? Good for you. That means you probably have access to Lexis and/or Westlaw. You can look up the NJ gun laws and Federal gun laws. For federal laws, start at 18 USC 921 and work your way through it...that'll cover most of the important stuff.

 

Art- true if the shotgun is only 18.5" OAL.

However, if the BARREL is 18.0", and the full overall legenth of the gun is (I belive 26") then you are OK in CA.

All shotguns with BARRELS shorter than 18.0" are federally regulated (in the same mannar as machine guns, ie 6mo wait and FBI background check, plus $200 tax stamp, Form 4, etc.) and outright prohibited in CA.

 

Couldn't agree more, it's a FANTASTIC gun, if you just really really need a huge grin and to punch 1/2" plate clean through at over 1500yds...

Give me a good accurate buy reliable AR-15 with an ACOG telescopic sight, and all the rounds I can carry, and I'll be quite happy.

 

F-ing sweet gun. AR platform, .308 cartridge, bolt-gun accuracy in a 20-round autoloader. Mil-spec to boot. (slobber)

 

One of the scariest threads ive seen for a while. You guys are nuts. Gun culture is endemic. Thank god gun related crime is still relativley low here because of the strict ownership regs that are in place. There should be a massive national ban on gun ownership and then for sure the number of incidents would be less after an event like Katrina.
just my 2 cents. Im no pacifist freak, its just common sense.

Zak

 

I'd bet money that your gun related crimes have gone UP after you've implemented your national bans. Criminals love disarmed victims, after all.

...And criminals could care less about whatever new laws you pass. Only the law-abiding folks care about your laws, and by definition they aren't your problem.

Haiti and Brazil have full national bans on guns, and their crime rates aren't anything to emulate.

In contrast, you could lay thousands of loaded guns on the ground at every street corner of Tokyo for a year and their crime rate wouldn't change in the least one way or the other. So culture factors in more than gun accessibility.

 

Strange.....you're not typing in German...why is that?

 

Katrina demostrated what can happen in our backyards. Either you have a weapon and know how to use it, or someone else will use you. The UK may be different, but here in the US there are too many guns to ban. So if you want to be equal you have to have one yourself. THAT is just common sense.

 

Leave it to a euro to kill a good convo. about firearms.

Even the Japanese knew invading our homeland is suicide. Our population will not just bend over and heel. We have the means and the right to ensure that.

 

Thanks for the great repsonses. I think I need to add some additional information to my original post. I live in a residential neighborhood with my wife, two boys ( 2 years old and 4 years old) and our 7 year old Golden Retriever. While my dog is about 85 pounds and very protective of the house, I would be surprised if he would do much to protect us other than bark. He is very well mannered and loves people. I find it hard to believe that he would bite (let alone attack) anyone. Second, I am familiar with the gun laws of NJ (hollow points are a 4th degree crime here guys - sorry) and the current ban on assault weapons (thank you Governor Jim Florio - still the most hated man in NJ). While I am not up to date on federal regulations, I am aware that permits can be obtained if certain weapons, but I am not familiar as to how easily these permits can be granted (someone already answered this question). Third, I have not fired a gun in a long time, so I need to get to the range. I have several friends with large collections of guns, so I will go shooting with them.

Now for my two final questions. I like the idea of having a modern shotgun for home protection, but I have two little boys. How do I go about storing a shotgun so that I can get the weapon quickly in an emergency (i.e. home invasion at night), but still keep the guns safely away from the kids? If we did not have kids, then keeping the gun under the bed makes sense, but my kids are my pride and joy and I would rather not have a gun than put them in danger. Finally, what are the going prices for a G3 and AR-15 for new and used? Thanks.

Ken

 

Are the barrels on the Fox Damascus?


There are some decent trigger locks that allow for resonably quick access if needed...But the childern MUST know in no uncertain terms not to go near the weapons...I don't suggest this technique for everyone, but my grandfather kept a few chickens whom I tried to tame and make pets out of...when I showed interest in guns he took me out back and shot one of the chickens at close range with a shotgun...needless to say, the lesson was learned.

As to the G-3, AR-15 Try
http://www.ak-47man.com/home.html

They will ship to your FFL.

 

You're operating under the presumption that your children are safe when you don't have a gun for self-defense in your household (e.g. no possibility of an armed home invasion/robbery).

If that's accurate, then don't bother with a firearm as you are already safe.

In fact, if you are at all uncomfortable with firearms, don't own them. They aren't for everyone. They work well for me, but I grew up with them and regularly go to a shooting range to practice with them.

But if you aren't comfortable with them then they pose the risk of becoming a liability rather than an asset. They're just a tool, after all, and not everyone is comfortable with every tool.

Perhaps you can protect your family from murder, rape, and robbery via some other means (or just hope for the best). Large dogs are typically good deterents to criminals, for instance. Have you ever seen someone get mugged who was walking two large dogs?!

Some nurses (late shifts, lonely parking lots, bad neighborhoods) will carry deer urine in a glass vial to deter rapists (overpowering scent). It's harmless, but more powerful than a skunk's spray (available at every large hunting store). By simply breaking the glass vial, the criminal suddenly has the urge to leave the immediate area.

It's completely non-violent which might appeal to the pacifist in you, if that's your bent. Others carry bear spray or pepper spray, which are less effective and require a bit more skill to use. Still others carry a loud whistle.

A cell phone is good for calling 911. If you've got time to wait for the police to respond, then that's one way to go.

There are non-lethal bean-bag rounds available for shotguns if you want to step up your level of defense. There are trigger locks with manual keys, trigger locks with digital push button combinations, and gun safes with keys, digital push-buttons, and combination locks that can also safely store your real, loaded firearm if you want to step up a notch more.

You could probably interview the gun-toting survivers in New Orleans for their preferred method of self-defense to gain even more insight, too.

As a general rule though, I've found that those who are skeptical of firearms or worried about "their kids" gaining access and then improperly using said weapons...that those are the same people who go throughout their entire life as unarmed and unprepared for the criminal element as possible.

Hey, it's a free country. Do what suits you for your own lifestyle.

One poster even opined that he wanted a goverment imposed nationwide ban on firearms, something that you'd probably have a difficult time getting the (now armed) female rape victims in New Orleans to subscribe to, though. Once burned, and all that...

 

Here's something even MORE important that I thought about a LONG time before Katrina. When any big natural disaster happens, (or even a smaller one that happens to YOU), any individual person or family could lose everything. Even if you've stocked your kitchen with food and your closet with guns and ammo, if the hurricane or earth quake or tornado or riot or whatever destroys your HOUSE or apartment, then you are now just another VICTIM wandering around helpless with no place to go.
So this is what I believe the prepared person should do. At the very least, buy a summer cabin, or secondary vacation home, or rent a small storage place A CONSIDERABLE DISTANCE AWAY FROM WHERE YOU LIVE. Then stock this place with all the necessary things to put you back on your feet even if you had nothing but the clothes on your back after a disaster. Suppose you lived in New Orleans. You lost everything and are wandering around the flooded area. Wouldn't you feel better if you knew that all it took was a ride to a town 50 miles away and you could walk up to your storage unit, open it up, and have plenty of clothing, water, dried food, camping equipment, a copy of important documents and even a spare car or motorcycle and some cash to put you back in shape?

I think the above situation is more important than firearms. VERY few people get assaulted by roving bands of gun toting gang members, but nearly EVERYBODY is without the necessities that they need.

If you think ahead and stash the goodies miles away from your home, it could come in handy.

And how many times do house fires destroy EVERYTHING. Your "survival stash" would also prove very hand then as well as in time of disaster.

 

There is a dizzying selection of gun safes on the market. Cannon Safe company makes a gunsafe with digital lock that only takes seconds to punch in, open to door and be ready.

http://www.cannonsafe.com/

 

About 170 million people disagree with you.

It's too bad they're all dead, MURDERED by their own governments, post national gun-control laws being enacted. This number is a tally only since the year 1900. I am not making this up in the least, look it up please.

The UK is a haven for violent crime. Criminals there have access to over 4million (est) illegal guns, and most importantly, the law abiding citizenry has absolutely no means of defense at all.

 

How little are your boys? The only sure way to protect them is to gun-proof your kids.

You can try to kid-proof your guns (safe, hidden, keep ammo seperate, etc.) but nothing is 100% here. Kids are inquisitive and will find a way.

Unless that is, they go shooting with daddy all the time and don't care because it's old hat

I've met some 5 year olds that are great shots. (and I've met some 25 year olds I wouldn't let near anything more dangerous than string.) It is your job to decide where your kids belong.