Wheels Spacer Install @ Linder Ranch

Hahaha..

That Scardia would be the "I just got home and cant type version"

Yeee Haawww

IT was a GREAT WEEKEND!!!

and I am SO impressed that you were able to get her to work haha
and even on a P-Car at that!!!!


-A
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can you imagine her in the Mothers tv commercial ???
Now, we are talking exposure..
Roland
F40LM

 

Yea, I can imagine Nadia doing a Mothers video!
I can ALSO imagine her (and Brandi) as (Leslie-branded) "QUICK CHICKS"...IN a Mothers commercial: SCENE, Two quick chicks are rooting for their guy drivers. But the guy who wins had a more slippery car due to Mothers Wax?

(hey, I know, it's simple-minded. But that's what we're known for, here at BobL Head Advertising!)

Yes, I can see Nadia, focused and alone in the middle of a crew, busy around her on a seamless soundstage. She's perfectly lit, bringing out her wild Cossack bones and figure. She's wearing something TOTALLY EXOTIC from HER OWN IMPORT COLLECTION that she manufactures with friends in the Ukraine. We're not going to let her on a Mothers Soundstage without something from either Leslie or Nadia herself on her body! Right boys? We support our ladies! Roland, ask Helene. Dori, what do you say, Girls rule!

Likewise, Nadia could do print work for G2 Harald!
Same thing: As a Quick Chick or as a Ukranian Wearable Exotic

I'll pay her to stop traffic in Cheyenne at Christmas when the book hits retail!

Nadia's an amazing, amazing human being! And I hope she and Aaron spend their lives together, so the rest of us can hang out and enjoy the energy!

Nuts with this chatterbox stuff! I'll pay her (and Aaron's gas) to get her back to the ranch (or how about on a Tuesday sprint into RMNP?) Imagine medium-format negative quality of her and a number of Ferraris, with the RMNP Colorado Rockies in the background....cowgirl hat, mirrored sunglasses, a Ferarri in the reflection? Or her body, drapped over the hood of my 550? Sorry boys, but since I have the longest hood, it's only natural she drapes herself over MY hot car's hot body. I hear there's nothing like the natural heat that comes from a front-mounted 12. And guys, the Ferrari world knows that the 550's is also the most comfortable Ferrari interior ever made! Back to her exotic line from the Ukraine. Something strappy, even black leather/chrome spikes kinky to accentuate the shifter and black leather.

I've already done some concepts, based on the images that Aaron shot of her polishing. I can send these to the Fort crew later this evening. Right now - instead of fooling with a downgraded computer here, to get those images to you- I want to go for a ride! And photograph the beast at sunset on a country road with a barn and so forth. Try to get a good sunset shot with the barn in the background, etc.

ROLAND: I need Alan and Pascal's email.
Again, I'll email you guys privately with the Sprit of Ferrari concepts that I just did. You can imagine the Spirit of Ferrari in all the ladies who were there yesterday: LuLu focused on her art with Aaron's wheels , Nadia Nadia Nadia...it's all about Nadia and on the way home, I took Dori to 130 and she ALSO said the spacers felt better. Different people, same spirit! ..........I'm gone!

 

I hope ya'll don't mind if I chime in here on this issue...

As far as I'm concerned, there are a few inherent problems with wheel spacers (I’ll try to keep it simple)...

1) Wheel spacers add weight to the vehicle. This causes the vehicle to have a worse power-to-weight ratio, which in-turn will actually slow the vehicle down. This extra weight is relatively insignificant and you would not notice this difference. 6 lbs total? Ha!

2) Wheel spacers add mass onto the hub, which does actually increase the stress on the wheel bearings... also insignificant. Different wheels, typically larger ones, will have the same effect. Heavier wheels = more stress for the bearings, also a relatively insignificant stress.

3) Wheel spacers add mass onto the hub which will increase the rotational inertia and rotational momentum. This means a vehicle's acceleration, braking and turning rates will be decreased. In reality, this decrease can only be noticed in a fourth derivative (jerk function) analysis of the position of the C.G. of the vehicle and the rate at which the planar face of the wheel spacers changes relative to the velocity vector of the C.G. of the vehicle. In other words, it takes more energy (a longer time) to accelerate, decelerate and turn... this also is a relatively insignificant force.

4) Wheel spacers usually require longer wheel bolts which adds to problems #2 and #3. The added mass is insignificant.

5) Pushing the wheel and tire further out from the wheel well may cause an increase in aerodynamic drag. As more surface area is exposed, skin friction drag and form drag or incidence drag may increase. This also occurs with wheels of smaller offsets… Insignificant.

6) Pushing the tire further out may increase the chances of doing damage to your paint! Rocks lodged within the groves (tread) of the tires typically get dislodged as the tires get warmer and at higher speeds. Having the tire further out may cause rocks to scratch or chip the paint because the corner of the tire may be further outside than the body panel itself. This also occurs with wheels that have a smaller offset. This may be a problem for some.

7) IMO, the biggest problem with wheel spacers is the decrease of thermal conductivity from the rotors to the wheels. Brakes need to dissipate thermal energy (heat) effectively to operate continually (duty cycle). Although Al-Mg wheel spacers have a relatively high thermal conductivity, (approx. 200 W/m/K) they will still decrease the amount of energy that is transferred from the rotors to the wheels. Wheels are an important heat sink device for iron rotors. Constricting the amount of thermal energy (heat) to transfer to the wheels will cause the rotors to stay at higher temperature for a longer period of time, thus decreasing brake performance.

8) Pushing the wheels further out will change the geometry of the suspension. This is not really a problem because it only slightly increases the length of the lever arm from the point at which the springs act. This essentially makes the vehicle have a softer ride. This effect can be completely counteracted by increasing the tension of the springs… which is easy for some folks but difficult for most others. Usually this geometry change is so small that nobody notices. This problem also occurs with wheels that have a smaller offset.

All-in-all these problems are nearly insignificant in total and you should not worry about any of them. Don’t let this post slow you down from purchasing and installing wheel spacers of high quality. I believe wheel spacers are a great way to customize a car for those who will notice and care about the differences. I only mention these things for technicality purposes.

~Dan

 

Agreed... although 6lbs might be a bit much..

somewhat agree.. will work on a formula and post later..

Not following you on this one.. What "Velocity Vector" ??

Well #2, #3, and # 4 can all be effected if you took a big Dump in the morning, or didnt get enough fibre, or even just pigged out on some fajitas before a ride...

I mean since we are talking "insignificant"

The drag effect on these cars with the spacers that are added in null, although I have yet to put one of the cars in a wind tunnel, my experiance in
TDynamics, and LDynamics tells me that this wouldnt be measurable at the levels we are dealing with. ( I do agree that at some point and depending on the force, and setup, it could prove to increase drag of some sort, but so does the license plate mounted to the front of the car, as well as the one on the back.

When installing the spacers , we looked closely at this, and made sure we were NOT pushing the tires out past the rear fender, for this exact reason.
Although I dont mind rock chips, as they do happen, I installed clear bra on the rear panels behind the tires.

This one I am really not following, and I am not sure if we are both working off the same Dynamics basis, or Physics....

If you are stating that the brakes wont shed the heat due to the spacers, you are incorrect, as in real life, the air space between the tire and brakes is increased, which in Ferrari design creates a better airflow against the rotors.

I agree that some heat is "passed thru the rims" but this is a "After the fact function" vs a design concern, or engineering item.

Again, I agree in some form and fashion, having the tire pressure 1lb off on oneside of the car, can do the same..

Dan, as stated above, I agree on some points, and my opinions on others, I believe it was a GREAT and thought out post.. (Thank you) and I agree 100% with you that "All-in-all these problems are nearly insignificant in total and you should not worry about any of them."

Please by no means, take my comments above as negitive, I am a very logictal person, and just state it as I see it.
(we are all friends here)

Also, I wanted to add, that these spacers are not floating, and that they bolt to the rotor, then the wheel bolts thru the spacer to the rotor (depending on the front or rear) this was (I assume) to address the whole friction points, and slip friction etc, - and please lets not get into the whole "Lug nut issue" and they cant handle the added torque, etc.. this gets address with the TUV process, and my brain is actually to relaxed to start working formulas for all this, (as I had a restfull weekend, and my brain is still doing it) haha

(I guess the question could be posted - are these spacers considered HubCentric ?? )

I would state YES, but I didnt build em - I just installed a few.


Regards,

-A

 

Hi Aaron - yes, the FORMULA WheelSpacers are actually double hub centric; but like you, I am to relaxed now (had some Tuscan Red) to get into the diff of double hub centric, hub centric and basic "cheap" spacers that are not hub centric.

Guys - this was probably one of the best threads on this issue. I am so very happy all the great questions have been asked and I feel that we answered most of them, perhaps not a techno-physically (if that is a term) as some may have wanted it to - but all in all, it's been great.
Thanks -Harald

 

Hello Harald,

I was sure they are Hib Centric, although I didnt know if "Double" was an option, so I didnt say it

I started to run some models on the force, and dynamics on my puter...

I think I need to go get Nadiya for some dinner

-A

 

You Guys are way to smart for an old racer like me. I based myself on feed back from the car and years of experience with spacers on race cars.
I like Bobhead's approche much better : Naydia, Naydia..That Dude need more oxygene and he got to much at the ranch yesterday..No hope for him !!! I still think that she will look better with my LM hahaha!!
Great post from all, this is what the F.chat is all about, thanks to all for getting it, we ALL learned something about these great spacers.
See you in CU Boulder next Sunday
Roland
F40LM

Bobhead, check your e-mail

 

Hahahaha

-A

 

Velocity vector of the C.G. of the vehicle. This is, a vector at the center of gravity of the car representing the speed and direction the car is moving.

Haha! Actually, this only contributes to #1.

Yes, very true.

I am saying here that the rotors won't shed heat as easily. They don't completely stop shedding heat, they just slow it down. It may have been an "after the fact" design but it certainly has become a very critical issue now. In a race car, brake rotors without wheels to dissipate heat would be the same as a modern computer processor (CPU) without a heat sink. This is true for iron rotors... things are different with carbon rotors.

I completely agree.

Yes, thank you! I also am logical about it

Thank you all for the positive feedback on this one! I enjoy this for some strange reason. Also it is interesting to know they are not floating.

 

I understand what velocity vector is, I was just not understanding onon what plane you were suggesting it effected the rotors, bearings, axles, etc..

We are not dealintg with any lug pressures, and noithing is adding force L or H to the mass, so I was just trying to think of it in that manner.

I am affraid we are going to be given GEEK hats here shortly..

Cheers,

-A

 

Hmm.. to put in different words...

You know when riding a motorcycle, the faster you go the more difficult it is to fall over... It is also more difficult to turn. The more mass that is rotating with the wheels, the more difficult it becomes to turn. This is rotational interia. Also, the more mass rotating with the wheels, the more energy is required to change velocity. This is rotational momentum. Both of which are sometimes known as the gyroscopic effect. So it is the face plane of the rotors that the brake pads are parallel to verses the the velocity vector of the C.G. It becomes more difficult to change the plane that the rotors rotate about when there is more mass (and more rpm).

The GEEK hat is on!

Cheers!
~Dan

 

I don no much bout art
(or rotational inertia...is that like the Earth spinning or something?
"Buta I know whata I like!" (Ferruchio to Enzo, as the tractor salesman complained to the master about the clutch in his Ferrari!)

And since Sunday, when we installed the spacers, I've been testing the bird on back roads I know VERY well (as in 120-135 and 90 into ...and 110 out of corners). And the car rides better and holds the line through corners better. And the 550's power steering seems to handle the 6lbs of additional unsprung mass pretty well! It's all very subtle, but noticable.

Fortunately, last night as I raced from the east to get this sunset shot (with light on the barn - which I missed by two minutes) the local Sheriff passed me from the west (that's him on the right of the photo...bye bye!). I think that his Golden Eagle (three target capable) radar might have clocked me at 65-70. Does anyone know if Golden Eagles have cosine- correction in the math transform function? The (Kustom Signals?) website for Golden Eagle requires that you submit proof of being in law enforcement, before they'll tell you anything. Threat- countermeasure in the age of information warfare! What a country!

34miles of high speed driving, 3.44gl gas at $3.03....yikes! A $10 hour of Ferrari fun!
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Here is another photo I took on Sunday with both Alan and Aarons cars in High-Gloss Finished Custom Painted Calipers and Alan's already with spacers. After all the great questions and answers in this awesome chat, we can agree - the hard work has paid off, well

Thanks for the fun time and especially for the BEST HOSTS: Roland and Helen - you two ROCK!!!
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Thanks Harald, Helene paints and I'm rocking !!!
If we keep to paint calipers, I'm gona have to put her on te pay roll..
See you Sunday
BTW, the last calve is back with his momy and back in the home pasture.That's the end of the week end rodeo, thanks Aaron for your patience by the cattle trailer with Naydia..Romantic wasn't it ??
Roland
F40LM