Who's had their belt break?

my porsche maintenance & warranty book reccomends changing the belt every 5 years/60,000 miles. i change it regiously every 4 & 1/2 years. a friend of mine let the belt change go past 5 years on his porsche 944S2 and when the belt broke, it was $5,000 to repair. and that's in porsche money.

you'll sleep better with belts changed every 5 years, regardless of milage.

joe

 

You're changing the subject. Yes a Ferrari requires a different set of skills than an Ford mechanic, the QUESTION IS do these skills warrant the PRICING? Suppose we take a legal graduate, who has given 7 years and $200,000 to get his degree. Does his mechanic deserve to make the same money? Suppose a person has their PhD in something like anthropolgy, is his Ferrari mechanic more knowledge about Ferraris than he is about his subject? You are basing your argument on expertise, I proposing people in other lines of work with just as much if not more expertise are making less than the $125/hr figure, so how is that possible? I still say fear, what fear can an anthropoligist stir in you? None, the Ferrari mechanic has got the juice, even if all of his experience is all on the job and his education topped out at HS graduation. And as I stated before, if you can get $300/hr as a Ferrari mechanic by all means do, it is free society, just don't tell me it is because your expertise is superior to a PhDs. You get paid what you get paid out of fear of "what does it cost if I don't do this". And please, let's not go back to "but he only makes $23/hr of that", the bill states Labor = $125/hour, how that money is divided, used, appropriated is not an issue for the customer, the only issue for the customer is $125 x X amount of hours means you OWE this much.

 

Joe -

Belts brake. I blew one in my Honda at about 70,000 miles. Toasted the whole engine and cost me 4K to get fixed. When it snapped, I doubt the car had ever revved beyond 4500RPM.

I hope the senior techs can confirm this... but I have always believed that mechanical wear (whether its a lawnmower or a Ferrari) is not a linear scale. I'm pretty sure 7000RPM is far more than twice as exhausting than 3500RPM. The Ferrari engine is designed to live in high revs; the Honda engine is not.


The last thing I'm going to post on the subject is this thought:

Get involved with the local FCA and get your Ferrari on the track. Drive your Ferrari to the track like a regular street car, then beat the crap out of it (in a safe environment) on the track. Take notice of which systems get absolutely abused, and see how they respond to the abuse. The Ferrari will come back asking for more. You'll nail the brakes all day long from 100 to 20mph, you'll scream the engine to the red line with aplomb, you'll slide (it is a 348!) sideways more than you can imagine. Then, turn on the A/C and drive home like a regular street car. That is the very essence of V8 Ferraris.

With respect for your perspective, I think with a track-day under your belt, you'll develop a new found appreciation for the engineers that build these cars, the parts that go into them, and the professionals who service them. You are blessed to have an extraordinary car. Revel in the experience rather than fight it.


-Daniel


p.s. YES, I think the mechanical service I have received on my car is appropriately priced and perfectly fair.

 

and my 328 manual calls for replacement at 52,500 miles

 

IMHO, your brother was da*m lucky. My son recently sold his Dodge Stealth (rebranded 3000GT). Recommended belt change interval was 70K miles. We did the 2nd major service on it on schedule at 147K miles. Part of the service history with it when he bought the car was a $7,500 repair bill & owner's notes for rebuilding 1 head & replacing most of the valves. The dealer cut him quite a bit of slack on the bill. Normally would have been more like $10K or $11K. Original belt broke at 77,000 miles.

The 308/328 belt system is a early '70s 1st generation design. Their trapezoidal tooth belts are NOT as good a design as the modern serpentine tooth belts. They get bent around much smaller tensioners & cam drive gears than modern belts. The result is on the average they just don't last as long as a modern belt system.

I AGREE W/tbakowsky & krowbar:
BEFORE ANYONE MAKES ONE MORE POST TO THIS THREAD, PLEASE SEARCH THE CURRENT AND OLD FCHAT ARCHIVES AND READ EVERY THREAD WITH 'BELT' IN THE TITLE. THEN DECIDE IF YOU REALLY HAVE ANYTHING WORTHWHILE TO SAY THAT HASN'T BEEN SAID ABOUT 5-10 TIMES.

 

Verell on another question regarding belts(sorry for the hijack)If the timing in my car is right and I change the belts myself along with the tensioner bearings without moving any cam positions can I the have the timing rechecked by a F mech to verify that the timing is ok and if the timing is slightly off can it be adjusted or do the belts have to come off.Sorry I wouldn't know where to begin to search for the question I've just asked.Thanks in advance (PS: engine is currently undergoing complete rebuild so this is something I might consider doing myself in 2-3 years time)

 

there's only two ways timing can be off. Either the cam pulley is not pinned to the camshaft correctly, or the belt is off 1+ teeth on one or more of the pulleys.

Since you wouldn't be taking the pulleys off the camshaft to change a belt, the only way you could screw up is to put the new belt on wrong. Assuming you mark the pulleys and old belt, then xfer the marks to the new belt, it's pretty hard to get it wrong.

The cam may move when you take off the old belt, but that's not a big problem - and you could use a cam locking gadget like verell's to stop that from happening.

 

What a load of pompous arrogant crap.

Higher level of talent to work on Fcars?? Have you ever looked under the hood of your Fcar? Obviously not! Sorry to say it doesn't take a brain surgeon to service it.

Granted some people can't afford to maintain their Fcar - but most can. It's like anything else - it's how you choose to spend your money. I think you'll also find as most Ferraris are 3 or 4th or... cars, basically toys, and that a relatively small % of Fcar owners are making payments. Most have some significant net worth and aren't living week to week like some Kia owner.


Agreed, much of the fun of owning a Ferrari is keeping it maintained. Although, the personal satisfaction of paying a dealer $100+ an hour to do the work is far less rewarding than doing it yourself. While my time is valuable - the time I spend maintaining my car is priceless.

As far as the original topic of this thread, very few instances of belt failure have occured - it's just that with a Ferrari, the costs associated with failure are substantial. While there are way too many threads discussing the interval for changing belts and tensioners, with the information available, like Ferrarichat, only a total idiot would not be a aware of the potential for a catastrophic failure should they ignore proper maintenance.

 

Wolftalk thanks for your reply

 

Question #1 Do belts break on Ferrari's? Nope, its never happened. Drive it like ya stole it, its built so much better than anything on the planet it never needs servicing. Anyone claiming to have broken a belt is misleading people and spreading fear.

Question #2 Are Ferrari dealers overpriced and ripping people off? Absolutely. Just because they only sell three or four cars a year, buy rediculously expensive special tools from the factory, have a sales floor thats amazingly artistic, and have some of the best mechanics money can buy, its no reason to charge any extra to service thier cars.

As regards mechanics, while some can look under these cars and see how simple it is, many others, no matter how many years working on cars, cant. I have owned many different european cars during my life, and cruised around to many various shops in the process of finding parts to keep them running or getting technical advise. A SAAB is a good case study. Most mechanics see that goofy hood open up and see that motor in the car backwards and just about fall over. They stumble back like they just seen Satan, and walk away mumbling incoherently. Thats is NOT the guy you want working on your Ferrari.

But really, I truely believe Mr. Ferrari wants us to do our own work on the cars hes made for us. He started out a mechanic, its the least we could do to honor him as we drive his machine. I wonder why F-40's, with basically the same belt system as a 308, get belts changed after every race, or so I read somewhere. Hmmmm.

 

The same reason that tires and fluids and brakes and on and on and on get changed on racecars. The belt is an easy and cheap fix for a racing team. It is cheap insurance and $500 or so (the actual "cost" to the team) is CHEAP in "racing money".

I am not sure that one applies....

 

Maurice, wolftalk's answer is correct.

As to having a mechanic verify, that depends on the model:

You have a 2V car. There's a factory tool that's essentially the same as the long half of my cam locking tool. The tool sits over the cam shafts & has a mark for each shaft that the marks on the cam gear mounting flange must match up with when the engine is on TDC (aka PM1-4)..

I put the same marks on the cam locking tool, so you can do the check yourself.

However, there have been instances of 2V cars whose cams don't have the marks on the flanges.

Also, 4V cars don't have space to fit a tool.

In these latter cases, so there's just plain no way to check w/o pulling the cam cover & using the marks on the cam & cam caps, or using a dial indicator.

Well, on the 4V cars, there are the little metal arrows on the fibreglass belt cover backs. However, they're very hard to read, & can be easily bent so their accuracy is always a bit suspect.

 

Thanks Verell,as always a very informative answer

 

I agree. I think some people took what I said to mean that they should treat their Ferrari like a Honda. That is not what I said at all. I was asking an honest question....more specifically, was there something unique to Ferrari engine or belt design that causes them to wear at a faster rate?

Whatever the case, I never said I would not change the belts on my Ferrari simply becasue some other engines can go a long time without breaking their belts. I would follow the factory's recommendations exactly. Like someone else said, it is cheap insurance and no way is it worth the risk of an engine rebuild. Like your grandma said, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

 

That is correct. Momentum (and therefore the force on whatever part) increases with the SQUARE of velocity.

 

Thanks for that info....exactly what I was looking for!

And I agree, my brother was very lucky indeed.

 

$100 per hour is not alot, not to me that is

and it's not alot anymore these days (especially to people who have their own business and have overhead etc.)

but it is alot to some people

if it's alot to you, i can understand your frustration with paying people

probably for you, it's best to try and do your own work then

 

Do you realize what a pompous ass you sound like? You have no clue what I can or can not afford. The question is not whether I can afford $100 an hour to have my car serviced but 1. how I choose to spend my money and 2. how much pleasure I derive from taking a hands on approach and learning as much about the car as possible. My only frustration is reading crap from some poser who doesn't have a clue what he's driving.

 

Right on! I'll bet his frustration is he's driving the "old - old model" .....

 

Please, please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion!
Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who. We are here
today to witness the union of two young people in the joyful bond
of the holy wedlock.

Oh wait, it's another belt thread... OK carry on!

 

The thing that I can't believe is that there are some owners out there that absolutely cannot do any service on their cars. I really find this amusing. You can pay somebody 350.00 to change your oil or you can do it youself and have some fun. Imagine the thrill of telling all your friends that you do your own work on your Ferrari.
So learn how to change your belts too. I will be able to do it after one more walk thru with my mechanic and then I will be free. That's right, I will be able to replace my belts at every oil change and enjoy every minute of it. You can't tell me that at some point even Jay Leno doesn't get a little grease on his hands.
Otherwise quit *****ing and pay the piper. The reason that we own these cars is because they are not like anything else on the planet. They must be treated that way like it or not.

 

I can't stand gardening but I happen to like to cook. Everyone's different.

 

I just broke a belt this morning.....in my 308 QV.....taking it to the shop for an oil change. The belt didn't really break, it MELTED. My water pump/alternator belt. I've had a persistant squealing noise coming from the right-side of the motor the past couple of times I've started the car, and I had intended on having my local mechanic check it out while he was changing the fluids.....I didn't get 20 yards from my house when smoke poured from the right rear of the car. In the process of getting it back into my garage, the alternator warning light came on - BAD!

I'm not exactly sure what caused it, but I have two theories I'm looking into now - the water pump was rebuilt recently, and is usually a bit 'stiff' to turn because of the new seals - alittle too stiff, perhaps? This may have caused the belt to gall/slip, causing massive friction. Another theory is the belt was too loose when the water pump was re-installed, and not providing itself enough tension on the pulleys to prevent slippage/friction. I had 'alittle' play in the belt when the water pump went back in the car, I understand that this belt must be VERY tight (guitar string) as it is plastic and not ordinarily rubber.

Both the water pump and the alternator appeared to be working normally just prior to the meltdown. The belt, however, squealed like a BANSHEE last evening when the car was warmed up to check the cooling system. I never want to hear that noise again, that's for sure....

 

M.James,
I had the same thing in my 79 308. What happened to me was that I replaced the belt because the old one sheared off. I guess it has to be really tight or it will loosen up which happened to me, and it started squealing like a banshee. I just had to tighten the belt up again.

 

Yea, I'm thinking mine was just loose, it overheated from friction, and POOF! Smoke galore and bits of plastic belt everywhere.....my water pump spins freely, so its not seized at all.....in fact, it rotates quite smoothly. Belt made a mess, though....the water pump pully groove is HEAVILY gummed up with molten plastic. Not sure how I'll dig it out with the pump in the car....