CIS to EFI converter

I ran across this page while chasing links: http://www.bitzracing.com/products/injector_bungs/injectorbungsdetails.html

Any thoughts on these? They look like a viable alternative to machining the stock intake, but I'm not an engineer. They were originally designed for the CIS 911s. Lots of pics on the page
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On my 2V intake, the CIS bungs thread in . . . I made some adapters that thread in and caputre EFI injectors . . . I'm in the process of installing a Haltech ECU . . . just got the ignition side working so far and should be starting on the EFI install next week.

I can make up some more adapters if anyone's interested once I finish the installation and make sure there's no "fundamental errors".

Sean

 

Thats a fantistic idea, I was running the idea through my head for my BBi, didnt want to modify anything to make it work and figured a sleeve of some sort would do the trick to adapt the ijectors, the rest is straight forward as far as im concerned. Now Im really thinking, toss the CFI into a box, im sure the power increase combined with the longer runners would really turn the tables on the carb cars. You could even run larger t-bodies etc for the cfm increase, thanks for the pics.

P.

 

My first thought is I like them. My second thought is to point out that it only sonlves 1/2 the problem.

The second 1/2 is retaining the injectors in the apapters and getting fuel to them. If I'm not mistaken, the 308 injector do not point straight up, they angle toward eachother in pairs...so a standard fuel rail won't work (there is nothing to bolt it to anyway. So you need to use fuel lines that clip to the top of the injector which is fine, but then your back to how do you retain the injector in the adapter....maybe drill and tap each one for a retaining clip of some kind?

What are you planing to do Sean?

 

Wow, this looks promising this coming winter i had planned on having the TB and plenum intake enlarged, so it makes sense if we can get more fuel in there as well to boost things upward. Seems do-able and i would assume (a bad thing with these Fcars.. and the F stands for... 'cking ;-) ) that the stock fuel pump can handle the upgrade.

i am not overly technical so would love to see this idea expand and become an end-to-end project of known goods. And yes, it would make those carb guys take note

 

Bring it on, Bosch boy!

Actually I am following this with a lot of interest myself... very clever product.

rt
'carb guy'

 

3.2 motor and I think all 4 valve motors injectors point straight up and by eye look equidistant. The fuel rail challenge will be the throttle body. At least the 1-4 rail will have to be 2 pieces.

The real advantage to it will be cams. CIS just does not respond well to big cams. That in conjunction with a much bigger throttle body and some compression....

 

Once again, Brian is correct. 4V injectors do stand straight up.
Next up, which injectors and which control system?

John

 

I has looking as a 2v intake now that I think about it, and I've had a custom intake on my car for years now.

Injector sizing is pretty straight forward:
http://www.haltech.com/injformula.htm

There are a few good controlers, they all have plus and minuses. Motech is the best and most expensive, haltech the easiest to install, electromotive comes with a good well integrated direct-fire system....they will all run the car.

 

I'm looking hard at the Megasquirt, it's been used very successfully to convert Porsche 911 CIS systems to EFI. In fact, these adapters are part of a kit used for just that. I would leave the ignition alone at this moment, and use the 'squirt for fuel control -- basically a straight replacement for the CIS.

I heard back from the guy who designs these, he doesn't have any information as to whether they'd work in the QV/328.
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The major issue I can see is that an electronic injector is a lot shorter than the CIS injector, and according to the attached diagram the hole for the CIS injector is very long and narrow. I doubt that you could find an injector with a narrow enough spray pattern to reach the manifold runner without hitting the sides of this hole, so you would end up with majority of the fuel dripping down the sides rather than staying atomised. While it would probably still work, it would be far from ideal, especially when the air velocity in the runner is low.

You might be able to solve this issue by tapering the hole from the end of the injector boss. Should be a relatively simple machining operation but I don't know how much material is in the runners.
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That's probably a valid concern. Looking at the 911 cutaway attached, it's a much shorter distance. We know that the 3x8 has been injected before, though, and even with a cut down boss instead of the adapter it seems like a long path.
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The problem is this---the CIS injector is really long and all the EFI injectors are really short----
your injector needs to be right at the side of the airstream so on a 4v or 328 you will need to machine the "bung" down enough (1/2") to get the EFI injector down into the airstream.

 

Note the 1/2" removed from 1 side intake----ALSO without removing the 1/2" you have a MAJOR interference issue with your throttlebody
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PS--I have an extra set of 4v/328 intakes that I am going to machine and fit out for EFI---just to sell them.

 

I did a little reading on the megasquirt recently...it doesn't do a lot of the things the more expensive systems do. I think you'll be disappionted if you go that way.

 

Specifically? There's an ignition control option for it now, and I know it won't do sequential injector firing, but it seems like it's capable of replacing the CIS system

 

Charles, do you recall how the CIS injector bung is held into the intake? Is it pressed in or threaded?

Thanks

 

Hey Guys,

Check out these injectors (Pico) made by our favorite people, Magneti Marelli. I found them tonight and from the spec sheet (HT 47mm, about 2") they could really help out with the fuel rail problem around throttle body. Edlebrock is selling them as secondary injectors for import cars. Not a lot of info though. Here is a spec sheet I found on the net. Does anyone see why these injectors would not work for a 308 EFI conversion?

Bill
View attachment Pico Injector.pdf

 

A) Tillman--the bungs are epoxied into the the runner with a special hi-temp marine epoxy

B) Harta--these injectors are going the the wrong direction--you need an injector that is extremely long below the O-ring so the tip of it gets into the airstream of the intake.

 

This applys to my 2V intake . . . I've got the tip of some Bosch injectors inserted into the origional injector hole about 1/4" . . . if the injectors have a 60 degree pattern, the spray cone will not hit any of the "injector port" . . . to also help this, the spray supposedly shoots out the injector about 1/4-1/2" before it starts to cone outwards (haven't checked this).

Anyway, I was trying to get away with doing the EFI conversion without machining the intake or even having to pull it off. I've been able to make a fuel rail which also fits under the throttle body . . . it's 1/2" i.d. tubing with -4 nipples welded on. I then made some adapters which "plug" onto the top of the electronic injectors and adapt directly to -4 line.

I tried to post some pic's but in the middle of cell phone service change over . .. can't download pic's right now for some reason . . . will post pic's as soon as this is resolved.

 

a 2v intake is actually pretty easy to do because of the way the injectors fit---unfortunately, the 2v intake will not work on a 4v or 328


here is a finished pic on my intake with fuel rail
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the next big project on my list is getting a MoTec 800 unit to replace the Electromotive TEC-3. The Electromotive unit, while nicely packaged with the coil paks, has turned out to be unrelaible. I have had to send it back for repairs 4 times in 3 yrs

 

Great pic's and beautiful work Atlantaman!!!


The stock QV injector bungs don't thread in like the 2V?

Sean

 

Wouldn't those small injectors work if the intake was properly machined for them, like yours? I am thinking that of you use these small injectors you might beable to avoid all or some of the trickery associated with fitting a fuel rail under the throttle body. I am talking about a 4v model.

Bill