Total brake fluid replacement?

OK, what is the best method for total brake fluid replacement ('91 TR)? I have a vacuum bleeding kit and want to COMPLETELY replace my brake fluid incl all fluid in clutch system. Thanks, Jim

 

Are you changing the fluid type? say from dot 3 to a 5.1 silicone?

If your staying with the same fluid type here's how I do it. Suction out the master cylinder reservoir as much as you can. Fill with new fluid and bleed as normal, this will clear out all but small reminants of the old fluid.

If your changing to an incompatible fluid type and need to fully purge the system then it gets a bit more complicated. But really just takes a lot more diligent effort on bleeding them.

 

Yes, I am changing the fluid type but using a fully compatible one. What about the clutch system? Should that be bled before or after the brakes?

 

There is no way to run new fluid totally thru the system is there, to minimize bleeding effort? I have read other threads of guys using diff color fluids and running it thru, but logically, I can't see how that would work with a brake/clutch combo system. Am I wrong?

 

There is some fluid around that comes in two different colours IIRC. Don't get too hung up on it- just bleed lots of fluid throught the system & you'll pretty much guarantee you've changed it all. Do it in the std sequence of RR, RL, FR, FL & then the clutch Take the most out the first wheel - with that one you have to flush the master cylinder through, and the line leading to the rear of the car and the caliper so give that one over half a litre. Empty the reservoir (with something like a turkey baster) and refill with fresh fluid before you start.

Avoid Dot 5 (silicone based) fluid. A good dot 4 or dot 5.1 is what you are after - Castrol SRF is probably the best high temp fluid if you are heading for the track (but it costs).

I.

 

OK, no shortcuts, eh. I am going with Valvolene Syn. No tracking. Thanks for the input. Jim

 

Make sure that all the seals in your cars brake system are compatible with the synthetic brake fluid you are going to use.

 

The best way is to scrap your vacuum bleeder and get a pressure bleeder. I made one from a small bug sprayer.

use your suction unit to remove all the existing fluid from the resevoir

add new fluid ( i use ATE Super Blue or Motul) ---attach your pressure bleeder to the resevoir and pressurerize.
then all you ned to do is open your bleeder screw on the caliper and watch for the color change.

with a pressure unit you can do it alone in about 15 mins for all 4 wheels

http://www.bimmerworld.com/html/pressure-bleeder.htm

 

How do I find out? Its ATE calipers and fittings, and Bosch Master, and Ferrari OEM seals in clutch slave cylinder. Wouldn't there be a warning on the container? All it says is compatible with (and exceeds) all DOT 3 and 4 brake fluids.

 

Had trouble with bimmerworld checkout. Found one cheaper at www.gprparts.com, but they don't sell ATE blue fluid. Guess I will have to keep looking for that. Wonder if the Bimmer dealer sells it?

 

www.modbargains.com has the ATE Super blue and the 200 gold, at $9.95/ ltr. OK, I'm set. I'm gonna replace that Valvoline Syn out of fear factor and b/c the ATE has better specs.

 

I'm not aware of any bleeding order dependence for the two systems. The clutch system taps fluid out higher up on the reservoir cavity so you need to be more careful about keeping it topped up (although the sloped hose routing down to the clutch master cylinder is well-designed to discourage air bubbles in the line from getting into the system).

I've been using the Valvoline SynPower DOT3-4 without any problems. You'd actually be changing brake fluid "brands", not "types" using the SynPower. IMO, the word "synthetic" got so over-associated with the Silicone DOT5 fluids that it's adding to the confusion -- just an observation...

 

Thanks for the input Steve. I am just going to consider the Syn a 'flush' fluid, and I will replace with the Super blue/gold, which is apparently a higher temp rated racing fluid, which will mate well with the carbon kevlar brake pads I just put in, which run up to higher temps. It says it has a 3-4 yr life too, although I will continue to flush my sys every year or after hard drives due to the poss of boiling the fluid. Not sure why boiling it would be a prob (my snowmobiles boil the brakes just about every time out), but apparently it is. I am sure the Valvoline is fine, and prob what was developed for IRL or Champ cars. Jim

 

If you are going to track drive the car and you have C/K pads in it you will need Motul or SRF to give it half a chance of not boiling. In my experience with many client cars at Laguna Seca and Sears Point TR/BB512/Daytona/F40 will all boil any other fluid within about 4 laps. Additionally TR/F40/288GTO will boil the clutch fluid as well.

In those conditions ATE fluid doesn't cut it, that is the reason the only fluids I have in the shop are either SRF or Motul. SRF is a little better than Motul at a substantially higher price. How much is it worth to have brakes on the next lap?

 

Well, I don't plan to track the car, but if I do, I will take your advice and get some Motul or SRF. I don't give a crap about the cost, just haven't had any experience with it. I just drive very hard on occasions...like in 30 min bursts in the mountains on the twisties, and don't want to worry about brake fade. Although pad and fluid price is not a factor, I guess price is in the sense that I don't want to have to put F50 brakes on for thousands of dollars or have to frequently rebuild the calipers, replace disks, etc. I just want tracklike performance in low to middle speed range. I will not be going 150 to 15 on a public street, more like hard braking but not much over 75 in the twisties.

I have heard that the TR seals are very delicate or something and although the calipers are easy to rebuild, I don't want to tear my car up. I appreciate your experience and advice being shared. Jim

 

I own a TR and have worked on them since day one. Had one customer with a 512TR that most of the miles were on the track. The car got driven very hard every time out. Saw it several times with pads and rotors that looked like they were tiles off the space shuttle. After quite a bit of that we finally rebuilt the calipers just for GP's. That was the only one I have ever done and those weren't leaking. I have never seen a bad caliper on one, then again my clients cars get fresh fluid every year. And that is the aggregate experience of two of the countries largest dealers.

Most of the reputation that TR's and for that matter most Ferrari's have for fragility is just overly aggressive selling or lack of product knowledge.

I went on a 750 mile trip a week ago with our 12k mile TR and one of the other TR's on the trip had 212k miles. His had no problem keeping up with me and it had 200 THOUSAND MILES MORE on the engine and trans.

 

That's good to know! Wow. Mine will get annual changes too!

 

My $0.02?

Get yourself the Motive bleeder, as recommended above. Yes, it will fit your Ferrari. It works great, you can flush/bleed all four calipers and the clutch in about 20 minutes. Don't worry about getting the last bit of fluid out, if you use the entire liter of fresh fluid, you'll get almost all of the fluid changed.

I too use ATE Super Blue and Typ 2000 (gold). Same fluid, just different colors. It does make noting the change in fluid simpler, but you really don't need it. Just pour the entire bottle of fresh fluid into the Motul, and watch the level. When you bleed the first caliper (Right Rear), watch the level. When it drops 20-25%, then stop and switch the left rear, and repeat. Voila.

As for TYPE of fluid, DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT. Seriously. For non-track use, it's TOTALLY irrelevant, if you're flushing fluid every year and using a good DOT 4 fluid. Heck, even a decent DOT 3 fluid, like Ford HD, is FINE for your needs, if you're flushing annually. Castrol SRF is a total WASTE of money for anyone not running the 24 hours of Daytona.

Do a search of other threads (I've posted a fair bit on this topic, and attached various articles in support). "Boiled" fluid on the track inevitable results from (a) poor driver technique, (b) poor driver technique, (c) poor driver technique, (d) poor brake ducting, (e) old brake fluid, or (f) completely inadequate braking system. Modern cars simply WILL NOT, WILL NOT, WILL NOT boil brake fluids on the street, unless you're rolling down the Rockies riding the brakes. Doing a few hard stops while in the twisties will NOT boil your brake fluid.

Clear enough?

Hope this helps!!!

vty,

--Dennis

 

I agree with Dennis. I use the ATE Super Blue in my cars, and it's great stuff. Perfect for both street and track applications. If I were racing the car seriously, I'd consider a pure racing fluid. But for street use and occasional track days, the ATE is great. And you're getting WAY too worked up over being sure you get every molecule of the old fluid out. Not necessary. Just have SWMBO pump the brake pedal as you open/close the bleeder (unless you have speed bleeders). There is surprisingly little fluid in the brake lines -- their internal diameter is very small.

Absolutely no need to switch from the Blue to Gold or back to assure complete flushing. As long as you're moving a few ounces of fluid through the lines, you've purged them. For normal street use, doing that once a year is more than sufficient. So chill out, flush the brakes, check the pedal, and go for a ride. Enjoy.

 

I track my 308 a LOT and the ATE SuperBlue works great for 90% of the tracks.

I also keep Motul incase I am driving one of the "brake eating" tracks.

I change between gold and blue ATE about every 3-4 months.

YES it does get expensive..........

 

I agree with Dennis and Steve, brake fluids do not boil unless something is wrong. And on some cars that are under braked for their weight, something is wrong! I race a car that I often see at NASA DE events in stock form where boiling fluid is often a symptom which so far I have never seen with my modified system. The major part of the modification is larger front rotors (same size calipers) - which dissipate more heat. But the car is also 500#s lighter.

So its all a question of compromise and I think that given fluid replacement inside 1 or 2 years (depending on climate), changing the fluid to a higher spec is not alone going to stop it from boiling. Track events are much more demanding then anything you will see on the street and any DOT 3 or better fluid will work for every street use assuming good pads and rotors.

My biggest problem is the deposits on the rotor from changing pad types. You really do have to bed them in for new pads to work and not warp or coat the rotor. Try bedding in a race car on the street - most public defenders wont take the case! Its also tough on the track as the mandatory slowing process represents a moving and unpredictable obstruction!!