308 CV Joint Rebuild | Page 2 | FerrariChat

308 CV Joint Rebuild

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Dave, Oct 8, 2005.

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  1. Bandit

    Bandit Formula Junior

    Dec 21, 2003
    493
    Central MS
    Full Name:
    Mike B.
    Yet another great write up to save in my notebook. Thanks Dave.
     
  2. chris marsh

    chris marsh F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 30, 2005
    5,753
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    Chris Marsh
    I bought the retaining rings from Dennis McCann with the boots. The retaining rings I received just have a square hole and indentations in the metal band. What is the proper method for installing these type retaining bands? Do they also require a tool?
     
  3. MRFOTOS

    MRFOTOS Karting

    May 26, 2003
    232
    Maui, Hi
    EXELLENT INFO ! Nice Fotos as well, but just one word of caution, In my user manual for my 2nd torque wrentch it states that it should not be used as a breaker bar to lossen up bolts, it puts undue stress on the device that may cause it to loose it's accuracy.
    I wish I read that before I messed up my 1st wrench.
    Those CV joint bolts are a bastard to get off, and you might ruin your wrench also.
    Mark
     
  4. FourCam

    FourCam Formula Junior

    May 19, 2004
    409
    Loveland CO
    Full Name:
    Cameron MacArthur
    Excellent write-up! I recently did mine also, and replaced the axle bearings in the uprights at the same time. Rather than fight with the outer CV bolts, remove the horizontal bolts holding the uprights to the A-arms and the axle/half-shaft can be removed along with the upright. The coil-over shock also needs to be removed from the upright and from the upper mount to the frame. Be sure there is no tension on anything before removal or you will be sure to damage either yourself or your car. The inner CV bolts can be reached as described above with a combination of extensions-preferably of the half-inch variety, and the axle can be locked with the parking brake. I was able to remove two of the inner bolts at a time, and then turn the axle about 120 degrees to get the next two, etc. After the upright is on your workbench, the outer six bolts are easy to remove and later replace. Disassembly of the axle/hub bearings is an easy and relatively cheap remove and replace procedure that should be considered as long as you are already half-way there anyway. I took my CV's and the upright to a machine shop and had them degreased, repacked, and the bearings changed out for less than $100.00. Oh, and while you are at it, for the removal of four more bolts, you can do the poly bushings in the A-arms!
     
  5. robertgarven

    robertgarven F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Feb 24, 2002
    5,293
    Ventura, California
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    Robert Garven
    #30 robertgarven, Oct 10, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,613
    The Brickyard
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    The Bad Guy
    Oooooo man! Excellent info on the VW joints Robert. That will save us BIG money if we ever need to buy a new one.
     
  7. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    18,038
    USA
    Yeah, I thought an air ratchet was almost mandatory for getting those bolts loose.....
     
  8. robertgarven

    robertgarven F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Feb 24, 2002
    5,293
    Ventura, California
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    Robert Garven
    Im not sure its the exact same part but was told it was, Dave did you see what part # was on your original lobro, if you have it lying about can you post all the numbers on the joint??

    Thanks,

    Rob
     
  9. MTLewis

    MTLewis Karting

    Apr 7, 2004
    195
  10. MTLewis

    MTLewis Karting

    Apr 7, 2004
    195
    Here is another link to a lightened and heat treated 930 Porsche CV Joint;

    http://doghouserepair.com/mall/description.php?ItemID=1237

    I am curious if anybody has any experience or comments. It looks like it is possible to lighten the CV Joints and strength the axles.

    Thanks

    Mark Lewis
     
  11. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
    Full Name:
    David Jones
    The only number on the original CV joint is... 16-77
    which I thought might have been a date number.
     
  12. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
    Full Name:
    David Jones

    I saw a few examples of lightened CV joints on the internet which looked trick, but ended up using what was in stock at the local Porsche parts place.

    It also looks, that if the axle length and spline count were the same as the stock 308, the racing axles would be trick as well.
     
  13. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,613
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    The Bad Guy
    More great stuff. Thanks for the links Mark. Especially for the boots. The dealers charge insane prices, for the same stinking cv boot, that can be bought for $12 each. GREAT INFO!!!!
     
  14. MTLewis

    MTLewis Karting

    Apr 7, 2004
    195
    The prospect of upgrading and lightening the CV Joint is very intriguing to me. The cost per joint according to the link is about $130. The same manufacture has hardened cages, ball bearings and center pieces. Another company polishes all of the wearing surfaces.

    http://www.doghouserepair.com/mall/description.php?ItemID=4409
    http://www.doghouserepair.com/mall/description.php?ItemID=4104
    http://www.doghouserepair.com/mall/description.php?ItemID=4107
    http://www.doghouserepair.com/mall/description.php?ItemID=3958

    I wonder what that would do the useful life of the joint. You would think that a racing piece would be a lot stronger and last longer. I was thinking that this fix maybe could last the life of the car.

    In fact it would not cost that much to cryogenically treat the whole axle. The company that does my cryo work does a lot of axle for the rock crawler guys. They tell stories about how the frequency of broken axles has gone down a bunch since they started freezing the axles.

    It appears that you can reduce rotating weight by about 3 pounds per axle or 6 pounds for the car. If that much weight was taken off of the flywheel the benefit would equate to about 12 to 15 horse power. Before people jump all over me, I do realize that the rear axles don’t rotate at engine speed but vary according to the gear selected.

    Mark Lewis
     
  15. CliffBeer

    CliffBeer Formula 3

    Apr 3, 2005
    2,198
    Seattle, Washington
    Full Name:
    Cliff
    For my Mondial 3.2, the correct boot kit was the same as the one for the Porsche 930 CV joints (about $20 from various internet retailers). The kits for the VW buses did not fit - must fit earlier CV joints (perhaps the 308gt4/308s?)
     
  16. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
    3,066
    Kansas
    Full Name:
    Sean F
    Off topic Dave, but what is that ignition you have on your car. That't not an OEM cap for sure.
     
  17. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
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    David Jones

    I have the Norwood electronic ignition conversion.
     
  18. chrismarsh

    chrismarsh Rookie

    Aug 16, 2005
    5
    detroit
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    Chris marsh
    #43 chrismarsh, Nov 4, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  19. 360gtracer

    360gtracer Formula 3

    May 18, 2004
    1,022
    Agree - leave the car in neutral and use a screwdriver in the rotor slot to stop it against the caliper. Much easier....

    Also, unless I missed it, disassembly/reassembly of the CV isn't covered. It may not need replacing, just rebuilding. I'll refer to 4 parts:

    Inner race - the star shaped thing in the middle
    ball bearings - need I say more?
    cage - thin, curved piece w/ slots in the edge
    outer carrier - big, heavy piece that the bolts go through to hold it all together.

    After you take it apart, clean everything thoroughly and regrease w/ proper CV joint grease, lay the outer carrier on the bench, set the cage inside that, and put the inner race in the middle. Here's where it gets tricky. You have to pick these up as a unit, lay them in your palm, and then insert the ball bearings - BUT! You have to put the bearings in opposite each other, you cannot go around the circle. So put the bearings in at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock, then at 2 o'clock and 8 o'clock, then at 4 o'clock and 10 o'clock.

    And, the orientation is critical. Note in one of Dave's photos (from the end of the axel) that the wide "point" on the inner race is aligned w/ the narrow "point" on the inner surface of the outer carrier. Conversely, the narrow "point" on the inner race is aligned w/ the wide flat on the inner surface of the outer carrier. With this alignment, it should be obvious where the ball bearings drop in, but you have to pivot the inner race/cage a bit to get the balls to drop in.

    [Yeah, I know, clear as mud - it's hard to write up, but easy to see once you start doing it....]

    Once you've got the balls inserted, you have to hold the whole unit - center and outer pieces, or it will all fall apart again. Then, again making sure you have all the parts suitably greased (more is *WAY* better than less - the rubber boot will catch the excess), you can slide the CV onto the axel and repeat until you have them all done.

    I've done this a few times, but am by no means an expert, so please, if you have more/better experience, jump in and correct me.

    Good luck!
     
  20. vref

    vref Karting

    Dec 18, 2003
    214
    1 Hr North of Housto
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Excellent post, great pics and detail. Thanks even though I don't have a 308 still excellent info.
     
  21. chris marsh

    chris marsh F1 Veteran
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    Aug 30, 2005
    5,753
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    #46 chris marsh, Nov 13, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I can anwer the question "will zip ties will stand up to the heat?"...the answer is no. (ask me how I know)
    I can also answer the question "will heavy duty zip ties that you buy at the electronics supply warehouse labelled heat stabilized hold up to the heat?"...the answer is no.(ask me how I know)
    They held up on the outboard side but not on the inboard where they are closer to the engine, trans and exhaust.
    I suspect my boots a dry and not as supple as tehy should be. Although I just bought them, they could have been on a shelf for 25 years. The metal bands that came with let loose as I was rotating the axle to torque bolts. Since I already had the axle on, I tried the zip ties. I searched and searched and could not come up with any band-it type clamps. One of the answers I got from the local transmission shop was "hell we just buy a new axle". I ended up fabbing a clamp (picture included) and at least it will be re-usable.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,613
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Uh....okay.........how do you know? :D Hehehee
     
  23. chris marsh

    chris marsh F1 Veteran
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    Aug 30, 2005
    5,753
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    Chris Marsh
    I know 'cause I can't get the taste of burning grease out of my mouth.
     
  24. Zertec

    Zertec Formula 3

    Oct 5, 2004
    1,335
    Singapore
    Full Name:
    Clive Reed
    Anyone know the material specifications of the drive shaft axle itself?
     
  25. chris marsh

    chris marsh F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 30, 2005
    5,753
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    Chris Marsh
    I suspect SAE 4130 or 4340 with heat treat would work. I make a lot of splined shafts particularly for electronic torque wrenches. I'll verify with the Engineers when I get to the office in the morning.
     

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