Cool FerrariChat.com site statisitics...

I was watching a History channel program on WWI trench warfare. They mentioned that as the result of long periods of stagnation in the lines, the troops settled in and even got to know each other across the lines. Different regiments would face each other and the regiments would come from specific geographic regions in those days. The documentary said that most got along fine with each other (e.g. stories of temporary truces and joint Christmas celebrations), but some just couldn't get along. Apparently the English & Prussians was one particularly bad combination. I couldn't help thinking about this spat.

You guys are still talking past each other.

 

I know that a large number of UK users think Steve F is owed an apology for being banned, but I still fail to see why that is so. Steve F was the one being rude in a non-UK forum at the time, provoking a ban. It's all fine to say that the UK forum should be left to its own moderators because outsiders don't understand UK humor; but why should a non-UK forum be moderated to UK standards then?

If you want to be taken at your word that Steve F's comment was OK in the UK forum, why not take others' word that Steve F's comment was *not* OK where it appeared? There wasn't even a "smiley" on his comment to hint that it was humor. They way I understood it, Rob offered to shorten or end the ban if Steve F simply apologized, which he is apparently too stubborn to do, dragging his supporters and mates in the UK into exile with him.

This would all be over if Steve F apologized for his comment and Rob apologized for his handling (which he has to some extent, see above; though he seems to be letting himself get into a mess again). But expecting Rob to apologize for everything doesn't seem fair when he didn't start it.

 

i am not taking sides here, but stevef tells me "I am willing to sort this out with Rob Lay, but only "on line", here and in "public" ".
cheers, d
ps ... please don't expect any punctuation.

 

Dave,

Does that mean that Steve's willing to appologise for the post that got him banned?

From what I can tell the only way to resolve this where it doesnt turn into a US v UK abuse fest is for Steve to appologise to Rob, then for Rob to appologise to the UK section

I don't really care about who did or said what I just want Fchat to get back to somewhere near normal again

 

i will bell him now.

 

I wasn't going to waste the time, but at 0111 what the hell.

The "spat" developed into much more than stevef's ban.

Rob's handling of both this and the last episode in the UK forum has spelt out, clearly, how Rob wishes to run his site.

As has been said by many in pm's, this is fair enough. In theory it's his site - though he will learn that the site is actually that of his customers. These customers are paying subscribers, advertisers and non-paying people alike. Cut out any one group and it'll start to decline. Though the life blood of the site are the people who post regularly, keeping the flow going (within the bounds that the UK mods have been doing a good job of enforcing without interference).

Tolerance is a great thing, but one thing that old school Brits do not tolerate is bullying. Rob's approach has been nothing short of e-bullying (new term for ya, you heard it here first and I've copyrighted it!), and the reaction to it was to be expected.

It has nothing to do with stevef's ban (I wasn't even aware that had happened!), and everythig to do with the attitude assumed by the site's owner, and the tactics used to "explain" the issue and why he is right (no room for error here - as he repeatedly tells us).

This site has some iffy sections to it, and personally (as I've stated before) they need more attention, and deserve less of a place on a "Ferrari" site than the UK section. But choices have been made by the management and so be it.

I for one do not want to be part of that sort of system. My subscription has been withhdrawn, I've exchanged PMs with Rob and will post infrequently (if at all save this one) on here now (for better or for worse). I deal with enough ****e at work. I come on here in idle moments to have a bit of fun. That's stopped, my "boss" has told me I can no longer do that and I choose not to be part of it.

The ultimate "issue" (such as it is) has nothing to do with stevef. The internet is a great leveller and people of all nations need to be thicker skinned. The world is too PC and we're all being forced into mediocrity and dullsville. This may suit parts of the world...

 

If you search the archives you'll find that steve f doesn't "do" punctuation. Nor does he "do" capital letters & I very much doubt he'd have a clue as to how to generate a smiley.

The comment that caused so much offense about the Alamo was almost cetainly ill judged on his part - especially in a non UK specific forum. Then again those on the west side of the pond need to realise that the Alamo holds no relevance, & is of no significance to us on the east side of the pond. "Remember the Alamo" is just an expression (for want of a better term) that some people will use occasionally. I suppose if anything its normally said as some kind of "cryptic warning" & usually not with any kind of serious undertones to it either. It is never used to cause offence because the Alamo (as an event) holds no significance to us.

I'd wager 80%+ of those who know of the name "Alamo" have no idea what happened there - perhaps Steve included. Most people just know it as a car rental company.

It was a comment that was therefore undoubtedly delivered in jest but clearly wasn't taken that way. His other comments were just Steve being Steve & probably also not very well thought out in a non UK forum. However, again, search the archives & you'll see Steve taking much "abuse" in relation to hs own "dimensions" from all & sundry. He cares not about it because his skin is a good bit too thick for such things to bother him. Perhaps, unwisely, he expected others to take the same view.

If Rob's response had been "b*gger off you fat git" he'd probably have turned round & said "fair enough"!

On the other side of the coin some of Rob's comments have been an utter disaster - particularly from someone with his position as "God-erator". I still think he just no idea how offensive he's been in some instances. (Of course Steve probably also had little idea how offensive his original comments were going to be either- therein the cultural divide!)

Rob's "disasters" then culminated in the publishing of someone's personal details (now removed but without an apology I see) - & that has to be the biggest "no-no" (ever) on any internet forum. I nearly fell off my chair when I saw that earlier. Anthony's comments on same were spot on.

What Rob may also be missing is that the aura of heavy handedness from anything or anyone remotely connected with the USA doesn't tend to go down too well over here these days - whatever its connected with - and that's probably why the "my way or the highway" approach has produced the results it has i.e. 60+ one fingered salutes.

What the "public debate" thread that has now appeared is supposed to achieve I have no idea but to be honest the idea of it makes me cringe. My bet is that someone is winding someone else up with it. It isn't going to *really* solve anything. Personally I think it should just be closed & let sleeping dogs lie the way they now are. If Steve really want's to come back onto FChat he will find a way to make that happen. Maybe he ain't actually that bothered - its only an internet chat room for heaven's sake! Given that most of his mates have taken off to pastures new I would think he's becoming less bothered about it by the minute!

For now it'd be better if this whole thing died away & that the UK forum was left alone. For those that think the UK forum is better off without all the banter that went on up until a week or so ago I would say this: much as some of it was a bit over the top & cliquey it did at least keep some activity going. Without it we are going to run out of ways to discuss which colour/paintcode for Rosso Corsa is the "real deal" within a week or three & then things will get even quieter/duller still.

As somebody else quite rightly pointed out, although this forum is nominally for talking about Ferraris in truth there are only so many discussion topics on Ferraris & most of them have been done to death a thousand times over. Hence why the forum became much more of an online meeting place for owners & like minded folks. When that happens you get "banter". If all you want is techy stuff then go to the Techy forum. The country/area forums are always going to be , more "OT". If they wern't then there'd be very little traffic indeed - as now seems to be the case.

Rob still maintains he's done good things here & "cleaned house". Comments about only wanting "Gentlemen Ferrari owners" are a bid sad really. Most of the blokes that own Ferraris that come/came here wouldn't claim to be of the "Gentleman class" (and probably wouldn't want to be) - they're just hardworking & bright people from all kinds of backgrounds. Rob probably had no clue of the potential connotations of the word "Gentleman" when he used it - QED.

The bottom line is that the UK forum is going to be quiet for a good while. Some very excellent people have pointed their browsers elsewhere and may just stay there - or they may drift back - who knows. Rob & his sponsors will just have to accept that - not much choice in the matter really.
Lord knows how this is going to turn out but it is getting rather dull to say the least (hence why it ought just to be allowed to die a death).

Steve may well apologise for what he said - but the $64,000 question for Rob is of course that if he does that, does he really mean it !!?? - you'll never really know!

I.

 

Nothing whatsoever is the answer to your question - and we know fine well many people in the US don't like GW - but somehow or other you still managed to re-elect him!

However, some of your actions & responses in recent days will undoubtedly have been seen as "typically bloody 'merkin" . I am sure there are some who would draw some close parallels between you and "Dubbya" at times.

I.

 

Well, if that behavior and the nature of his commentary is idiosyncratic, he should expect a blow up now and then from someone unfamiliar with it. Not everyone's going to scan through 9000 posts or even a fraction of them (particularly after they keep coming up on that breakfast pic ) to figure another person out. There *are* norms of behavior.

Isn't that what this comes down to? The UK forum tolerates steve f's idiosyncracies to the point of rallying around him and staging a sympathetic walk-out. But they take offense at an outsider's behavior and assume it's deliberately offensive rather than idiosyncratic.

I read some of Rob's stuff and I cringed also. Perhaps he's an experienced manager, perhaps not. I don't know Rob's background other than that it seems to be in IT. But if I give the benefit of the doubt to steve f, then I would equally give that same benefit to Rob (i.e., neither meant what they said in the manner it was taken).

Someone said earlier they thought people should develop thicker skin. I agree, if applied equally, but I also think everyone should make a greater effort to be courteous. It's been long discussed that the internet encourages people to say things they would never say in person. If *everyone* made an effort to be as courteous as if they were in person and were also slower to take offense, there would be far fewer unintended "dramas" with nasty fallouts.

I just found this post from steve f from a few weeks ago.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=135266426&postcount=1

Perhaps all this was a cunning plot by him to achieve his objectives

 

No it isn't - but then nobody "went looking for you" to start a war Rob. It all just blew up after the Alamo comments....you & Steve just happened to meet in the wrong place, at the wrong time & in the wrong mood.

I.

 

Iain, correct me if I'm wrong but didnt Steve go to an off topic post that was between Drs and Rob and make a comment that to anybody who was unfamiliar to Steve would seem insulting to the site owner, surely if Steve hadnt wanted to cause trouble he would have kept out of it?

I view all internet forums in the same way I view my local pub, you may have a group of people you regularly talk and drink with, but you wouldnt run over to people you barley know, jump into there conversationa and start talking rubbish at them......

As I've said before I think that both Steve and Rob owe the UK forum an appology, but it must start with Steve.......

 

I don't really think any of it makes a hoot of difference anymore - lines in the sand are drawn.

FWIW I think where it should have started would have been for Rob to send Steve a PM after the first offending post saying "Oi matey, yer a bit out of order there" instead of breaking open the "nuclear football".

99% of the problem here has been the "scale" or Rob's initial response - he just went nuclear instead of having a quiet word as perhaps a "Gentleman" might.

Then again, if Rob's sig line is anything to go by maybe that wasn't ever going to happen.

Regardless, its a bit too late for all that now.

I.

 

Iain,

Its my understanding that Rob had already warned Steve, and was aware that he had been reprimanded by Tony, Graham and Stig for similar behavour in the past.

Although I do agree about the lines in the sand.........a shame that Fchat UK should suffer for the actions, reactions & over-reactions of a few people over something so trivial

 

The late Rob Walker's passport listed his occupation as "Gentleman", IIRC....


...and "remember the Alamo" was used, as we bayoneted about 200+ 'mezicans over there by the San Jacinto River .....awhile back......>>>>>
"Remember Goliad" was also used as it was a second slaughter of surrenderd combatants, by the advancing Mexican army...they blew Commander Seguins face off with the firing squad, even after a gentleman's agreement not to do so was requested......there's the word again!


As such it's almost certainly going to bring up bad feelings, among either side of the original conflict when used.....along with the other comments on physical stature, and such.....

There will be no winners in this one I'm afraid, as anyone who has attempted to tap RL's shoulder in this instance, have been rejected....

Yin.....I was going to observe, yesterday, that the WW1 analogy didn't "fit" in this case as both sides in that conflict were equally armed as well as stalemated.........not the same as here, where one side can "turn on....turn off" the other.......

Sir Stirling Moss is always the gentleman when I have a chance to chat quietly with him....

Good luck and best wishes to all.......I'd leave Texas history, and GWB out of it......I really don't know why I'm posting, as usual!

Friendships have been made on this site, and I can assure you freindships have been destroyed, as well. ttyl.

 

Rob,

As I'm not banned (thanks for your email), I may as well respond to this so as to remove any doubt on a few points, as I feel you have not understood. Don't take that as a desire to be back here, it's not. I'm happier with the "bar-brawlers" etc on the other site.

Is that an unreserved apology for your behaviour towards us? If yes, thank you, and for my own part, apology accepted.

Yes you were, and yes you were way out of line. Almost all of us took it as directed at all of us, as that's how you wrote it.

To clear up the biggest misunderstanding in YOUR mind. I do not believe more than a couple of people actually left because of you banning Steve. That was NOTHING to do with it.

You used your argument with Steve to wage war on us as a group, and made it clear that anyone caught by your words was acceptable collateral damage in your crusade.

You're living in a different reality to the rest of us. Of course it's impossible to prove you wrong now as you deleted the threads!

But all I remember is that some users, including me, said you overreacted by banning Steve. Nothing more, and nothing rude. You took that as a personal attack.



By the way, we're now in a nicer place

You should have let the well respected UK mods deal with any issues in the UK section, not waged your ill-advised crusade.

Good luck with the rest of FChat, but the UK section deserves to die.

 

Rob,

Is it not the above reasons that show you that you are not the person to be dealing with problems across the entire site? As I have stated before it is totally nonsensical to not let the UK Moderators do their job. I know Steve had posted in a non UK section, so you have every right to get involved, but would it not have been wise to allow the UK Moderators to explain to his friends and comrades in the UK section the reasons for his banning and what was going to be the consequences?

Instead you have gone into the UK section all gun's a blazing, banning this person and that person for sticking up for their friend. From what I can see, exactly the same as you did the last time, lesson's that were said had been learnt previously, obviously have not. This I think leads to a situation of no confidence in the Administrator and this is the main reason people have left. This will happen again and again if you keep coming into the section is such an aggressive manner. May I suggest in totally un-gentlemanly manner?

I think it speaks volumes for the people on the UK section and their characters that they stick together and are as one when one of their friends has been, in their opinion, miss-treated. Would you not agree this is admirable and would you not want your friends to do the same for you?

I have caught up on the last event (simply had to, this is compelling stuff), and I can see where the problem is. Its simple and I have already pointed to it.

Last time, you banned a user for having a picture he thought was ok and had used for x amount of time. No reason given, no nothing, a straight ban. You then admitted this was the wrong course of action, a warning should have been issued. You said 'lesson's has been learnt'.

Steve made a post, in jest, you banned him immediately, no warning, no explanation (correct me if im wrong on this point). Banned.

Do you see the correlation in the above? You have not learnt from your last mistake and you have adopted a guilty till proven innocent policy. Here lies the problem.

I don’t have any suggestions on how to reconcile with the ex-regular users, but I do know how to stop it in the future.

Let the UK Moderators moderate the UK section and allow people the right to be innocent until proven guilty.

I have read this site for a long period of time and as an 'outsider' if I had the time to become a part of it the only thing that I have seen that would stop me using the site, is Rob's aggressive moderating. I have enough issues in my life, that to come onto a site like this and have anyone add to my problems and stress me out further is something I simply wont accept.

Good luck to users and moderators alike; I don’t think I have ever seen a better example of an impasse situation in my life,

All the best

Anthony

 

Just a quick clarification, I wasn't thinking of the "equality" of the stalemate part, it was the observation that there are some personalities that are incompatible even at the cultural level.