512TR Coolant in cylinder

A compression test or leak down will just tell you there's a leak which you already know.

You could just have a blown head gasket which would cause the fluid leak and smoke on start up. No way to know without pulling the head and don't you have to pull the engine for that?. I think so.

Just don't let whomever does the fix do a "might as well also" on you or it will cost 2x as much as it should.

EDIT: A compression test or leak down would also tell you everything is OK and it could be something else. It would also be much cheaper than pulling the engine to discover it's not the head gasket after all.

 

Ron, i am no expert of 512 tr's specifically, but 225 isnt "that" hot, not enough to cause such a failure on its own. 240 and i would be scared, but 225 in an aluminum flat 12 seems like it should not cause a headgasket to fail. aside from your sons advice on the coolant test i would respectfully suggest a compression test, even done cold, you should be able to tell where the fault is if its in the head gasket. remember to remove the plugs, kill the ignition and hold the throttles wide open. if you have had race cars this should be easy for you and your son to do together. i am sure our expert guru's will chime in soon to help you. best of luck to you.

 

It sounds to me like you have done a pretty good diagnosis. Ferrari head gaskets in the modern cars like yours are very little trouble but they, like anything, can fail. I am less inclined to believe a crack is the problem but if the head comes off I would go to the slight extra trouble and expense to have it tested.

I would just for laughs though try to retorque the head before pulling the motor to see if that cures it. I don't think the chances are great but worth a try.

Once the motor is out the head comes off rather easily.

On the trans. There are several updates depending on when yours was made. If you wind up pulling the motor I would be happy to get the information to you. Several of them are worthwhile in improving the durability.

 

If the compression test shows low compression, how are you going to know whether the compression is low because the pressure is leaking out through a gap in the head gasket, or leaking out through a crack in the head?

 

You are correct but on the TR 512 Ferrari quit recommending retorque of the heads even at the 1500 mile service and that was just suicide. The heads on those do come loose especially on the lower row (exhaust side) of studs.

All the flat 12's should be retorqued at majors.

 

The way to do it is to put a pressure tester on the rad and do a leak down test. If the rad pressure goes up....Bingo.

The problem with that is the leak is sometimes not there at all temps.

 

As regards cracks. If it did not get hot enough to melt the spark plug connectors (it didn't) my money says it isn't cracked.

I'm outa here until tomorrow.

 

Sorry to hear about that. I too have had a sensor go bad, and seen the temp rise. It could have happenned to anyone the way you describe it. Hopefully, its just a gasket. Why do you necessarily have to drop the motor to work on the heads? You might not want to jump into that, if time out of the seat is your biggest concern. I would figure out what's going on first, unless of course, you are do for a major anyway.

 

Ron, you can PM me if you want. Pulling the motor on your 512Tr is very straightforward. I have gone through my entire transmission, it has some quirks, but also is very straightforward. I am pulling my motor again next week and can help talk you through it and I also have some great guys that can chime in. It really is, if you enjoy mechanics, a fun job.

Rod

 

I should think that you are playing a dangerous game by starting the engine at all if there is coolant leaking into the cylinders though a bad head gasket, or a crack, or loose head bolts, or whatever. If you get coolant into a cylinder that doesn't happen to have a valve open on the next stroke, the hydraulic lock could do massive damage, certainly more than you have at present. If it were my own car, I would pull all of the plugs out and look for signs of any plug that displays evidence of the presence of water. Then I would crank the engine over with the plugs OUT and see if coolant shoots out of any of the plug holes. If you can do this test while you have a pressure tester on the coolant tank, all the better.

Just my opinion, I'm not experienced with the 512TR.

 

Most good auto parts stores sell a simple kit which detects exhaust gases if they are present in the coolant. Easy to use an fairly accurate. Remember regular TR engine comes out the bottom with rear subframe. 512TR comes out the top. I agree with others regarding the cracked cylinder head possibility. This would be a very rare case. If the car had been subjected to extreme cold for long periods of time with no antifreeze,maybe.

 

Hi Ron, I've had coolant leaks on the 512TR & 512M before, luckily no damage so hopefully you are as lucky as I was

RE the trans, as long as you take it up to 5 mph Before you stomp on the throttle the trans should be fine.

They are pretty tough but Ive subjected mine to abuse on the track so thats a whole different story than just accelerating hard on the road

Good Luck
WH

 

excellent info, i had not thought of the expansion versus cooling difference that aluminu, engines have. heck we re-torque certain thing on aircraft every so many "hours" of use. i would imagine a stressed high reving engine would need the same care.

 

If it's one or the other, he'll have to pull the engine to get the head off.

 

Ron,........ I was right there in your shoes four months ago. The temp never came cooler as the car was rolling. The pressure got inside the ignition chamber and explored the water hose. In my case, the head gasket got rusted badly the water found the gap and entered to the chamber. It's the garage queen car. They suspected that the car must have been left sitting dead without turning ignition for year.... I had the whole engine overhauled and changed every gaskets, seals... all rubber parts, right down to liners seals. Now, the engine runing rock solid cool even in "heavy Bangkok's traffic".

From listening to your condition, your heads and block should be ok since you stopped at 220 degree. It should be the gaskets or seals thing. But, it should be tough to determine which was the exact one; that'why in my case, I had the whole thing renewed.

However, there is one very sad TR in Bangkok, apparently, the owner drove the overheated car and never stopped or even looked at meter reading. He kept on driving untill the car knocked over and came to a stop by itself and never fired up. The heads and block melt and could never be taken aparted.... The car now is in the back of the garage at Ferrari Thailand with car cover over it for four years now.... waiting for another engine... The owner lost hope of seeing it alive again.

You are right......... if you see water rise in your Ferrari and never came cooler, stop the car and have it towed.... period!!!

 

Back when I first got my 308, the radiator fans were flaky. I eventually figured out it was the fuseblock. Before that, I was thinking it was a flaky temp switch at the radiator. (I replaced both, just in case!!) But I made a simple connector that I keep in the tool kit "just in case". It's just two male spade connectors with a short wire between them so I can circumvent the temp switch. You can make one for less than $1 and keep it in your tool kit. If you are ever on the road and the fans don't come on, just pull the two wires off the temp switch in the radiator, short them together with this little adapter, and the fans STAY on. That will get you home without being stranded or needing a tow. I'm not sure if the TR fan control is this simple, but if so, it's a good thing for anyone worried about this.

Birdman

 

You said;
"I have a Tubi where the banks are isolated, so know it's the right side."

Are you seeing condensation out the right bank in the colder weather and assuming it is coolant?

The TR will oil SMOKE on occasion during start up - sometimes surprisingly badly. This is normal operation. Does NOT mean a worn or damaged engine.

The TR always puts out lots of vapor that is only apparent in colder weather. This is normal operation.

Check for exhaust gas in coolant (chk w/ a radiator shop).
Pressure test the cooling sytem
Check the oil for contamination.
Check your plugs.

Drive it & enjoy.

Rgds,
Vince

 

This is true

I only had leaks due to pierced hoses, never had the engine leaking coolant

 

Ron - some thoughts.

First, I would not rely upon the temperature gauge or sending unit to draw important conclusions. IF accurate, these readings may not provide information concerning transient temperatures at the head. I doubt that the transducer/gauge is accurate to +/- 10% at either end of the scale. You do the math.

Second, I believe that head gaskets don't leak unless the head or block is warped, which would be the mechanism of action in this case (aluminum head). Too much pressure could lead to gasket failure, but as your overflow cap was functioning correctly, too much pressure seems unlikely.

Third, there are many hoses and clamps that could have leaked. Are you sure that it continues to leak, and from where? The water that you see on the floor may be running along a path from somewhere else.

Finally, in that you are psychologically along the path of an engine pull, why not drive the car for a while to confirm the need. I agree with those that suggested a simple diagnositc of pulling the presumed spark plug(s) to make sure that you do not have a cylinder full of coolant, but absent that, I see little danger (nor additional damage) in driving the car in a test/diagnostic mode. By this I mean that you drive reasonably, paying particular attention to coolant level and oil color. Drive it for a few miles, check the levels. Drive a few more miles, check the levels, etc. As you become confident that you are not evaporating coolant out one exhaust port, you may decide to not pull the engine at this time.

Retorquing the heads may help, but this is not an easy thing to do in the TR with the engine in place.

In summary, if my car, I would not be concerned about testing on the road, and driving the car until I am convinced one way or another that I either have a problem or not.

My thoughts. Jim S.

 

Retorqing the heads in the car is a piece of cake with tool #AV1393, also goes under part # 9971393. It is the tool used to get at the head bolts on all 4 valve motors and you will need it to get the head off anyway. I have seen them for sale on Ebay several times. I have done head torque jobs on TR's and TR512's hundreds of times.

You say the heads were torqued recently, then thats a complication because that makes you a candidate for the Guiness book. With an occasional retorque head gasket failure on any late 2 valve or 4 valve motor is VERY rare, almost unheard of.

Find the cyl in question and try the test with the leak down tester and cooling system tester as I said. Just bear in mind that radiators, heaters and waterpumps were built to take 15 lbs not 150 lbs.

 

For the tool try Ricambi America, then T Rutland. BTW I had the part # wrong, it is 95971393.

If you do need to make one I can supply dimensions, pictures etc.

If it does turn out to be a head gasket don't lose too much sleep over it. It won't cost a bundle in parts, just some time.