I'm Back With More Motor Oil Information

My 328 takes forever to get oil temperature in cold weather. In cold weather, I put a plug in the duct that feeds the oil cooler.

Naturally my Porsche of same vintage has an oil thermostat.

 

AEHaas, I am pretty sure that it is probably a flow issue with the 20W50. I broke the engine in with 0W30 synthetic and it had at least as much oil pressure as the 20W50.

 

I keep looking at the oil anaysis and it seems that zinc and phospherous levels are very high and I feel that don xvi is going down the wrong path extending his oil changes out to two years especially with the extra fuel in the oil. Around town driving should get oil changes twice as often, not extended.

 

I agree that changing oil every year is important and more so if there is fuel dilution and around town driving.

ZDDP or ZDP is an additive and the amount varies. Currently there is less than there used to be in the SM rated oils. This is in part because there is some evidence that too high a level may, over a long time, harm catalytic converters.

Go here to compare used oil analyses:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=3

Go here to learn about oil additives:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=21

aehaas

 

I'm not too worried about my Zinc and Phosphorous levels in my oil. I'm confident Mobil didn't put too much in when they formulated the oil. My car's 14 years old this month, the cat's long since shot.

As for the fuel dilution, you'll note that my viscosity still tests out at a 40 weight, so I'm relying on the old fashioned conept of lubrication via use of a carefully matched viscous fluid rather than counting on high quantities of additives carried in a thin fluid.

 

I guess when the manufactures start prescribing 0 weight oils in aircraft engines I may follow thier lead, but until then, I will remain with fuller bodied oils to keep the major parts from banging into each other. The heavier weight oils are to keep things like pistonsfrom contacting the cylinder walls, and I am sure that a Ferrari at 7,000 plus rpm can slam a piston hard into a wall. As many many engines around the world have achieved incredibly high mileages on conventional higher viscosity oils, while still retaining parts within that are still serviceable, I am just not in any great hurry to reinvent the wheel.

I know first hand, of engines from the late 50's, and early 60's, that not only are still running strong, but that have never been apart in almost 50 years. I would not doubt there are engines from even older periods that are in simular condition. I am also not banging synthetic, I just do not believe it is levels better than good quality dino oil. When YOU take an engine apart that you KNOW has 200K miles, and the crankshaft is still at standard size, as are the cylinders, you certainly cannot find fault with either the engine, nor the oil.

There was a early 60's Volvo P-1800 that accumulated over a million miles before the early 1970's. with rebuilds at about every 250k miles, and not once in four rebuilds did the crankshaft need grinding. There are litterally hundreds of stories like this, dating back decades, that shed light on the fact that oil is not that mysterious or magical. Just keep changing the stuff before it gets filthy and you can hardly go wrong with good quality motor oil.

 

AEHaas, I have a question as well as a response to Krowbar. Yes, dino will prevent wear if you are very dilligent in changing often and it worked very well for years in cars of very low performance. Then along came the increase in power and poor old dino just coudn't keep pace. Lots of motors experianced spun bearings and all kinds of galled parts. With 500%-1000% increase in film strength and much higher heat resistance it is very difficult to mount a defense for our old tried and true friend.
Now for my question I am very interested in ascertaining what basestocks are used in the top rated synthetic oils? I know this is very important as they have different characteristics.
The basestocks that I am aware of are: Polyalphaolefins (PAO's), Diesters and Polyoesters.
Mobil 1 uses PAO's and Redline uses Polyoesters and Neo uses Diester. Any indication what the other top oils use? Amsoil, Valvoline, Castrol.

 

It does seem that just about any oil can be used in just about any engine if the oil is changed frequently. The main difference in the synthetic base oils may be that they do not thicken as much after engine shut down and can withstand higher heat levels. The ester based oils withstand the highest heat and are used in jet engines.

Most people just do not understand when high heat occurs. Stop and go traffic is hard on oil because it does not get hot. Only high loads as continuous 75 percent BHP use will result in high oil temperatures. 240 F is warm oil. 280 - 300 degree sump temperatures is where hot oil begins.

Properly oil bathed cranks run in a film of oil and never touch in the bearings making them last essentially forever. If the air is filtered well, the oil is filtered and changed often to prevent build ups then engines can outlast the rest of the car.

I personally believe that the answer in the long run will be the semi synthetic oil. I am thinking of trying the MotorCraft semi synthetic 5W-20 in my Maranello next. Used oil analysis has not shown any benefit of synthetic oils over dino oils in regular cars (regarding metal wear).

aehaas

 

AEHaas, Thanks for your comments. What info can you share that indicates that a semi syn blend would be the way to go?

 

i have noticed this as well. the only thing i can add, having blown up and rebuilt lots of older american V8's , is that they have MUCH looser tolerances. a Pontiac 455 from 1969 to 1972 , or a chevy LT 1 350 are engines that were known to be "built loose" for power. the japanese really changed things with small, very close tolerance engines. i have been guilty of running "too thick oil" . instead od the 5w30, i have been running 10w40 in the summer and 10w30 in the winter. i think i am going to go with the thinner oil in my new Nissan daily driver and see if it likes it.

all of the old 308's i had wanted 20/50 oil. my GTB was old, never had any internal engine work done, as was the GTS. having all those carbs really added ALOT of fuel dilution issues to the oil. the cars hated 10/40 oil and had scary low oil pressure when warmed up to temp. my Dino 308GT4 had a rebuilt engine, and it had "better" oil pressure,however, it still liked 20/50 oil. i have always used castrol and i changed the oil in the 308's every 4 months on the GTB and once on the dino. i put 4500 miles on my gtb and had it a year to the month before it sold. i am planning on trying a shell 40 wt oil in the Lamborghini i just bought. i think that 20/50 will be too thick with the cold temps here in GA.

it seems safe to assume in this case that older cars, ESPECIALLY multiple carbs cars, benefit more from frequent oil changes than from running a 40 wt versus a 50 wt. the "damage" has been done to these 25 year old engines already, perhaps the super low milage ones will tolerate the thinner oils and even last longer.
even with mechanical guages, the 308's seemed to have too low an oil pressure when warmed up. anything less than 20 psi on a warmed up engine at idle just worries me. i know the rule is 10 psi per 1000rpm, so 10 psi at an idle of 900 rpm "should" be ok. but it doesnt make me feel any better!


another great oil thread !!! thanks for all the hard work !

 

One thing people do not realize is that a 10-30 wt. oil of the 1960's - 1970's rapidly thinned to a 10 or 20 wt. oil. Some started out as 20 wt. oils from the start. When people say that their 'ol 1960-1970 x car ran fine on these 30 and 40 wt. oils do not realize what wt. oil was actually being run in the engine.

You guys should go over to BobIsTheOilGuy website and read up.

aehaas

 

I still am not sure of the bennefits of a semi-synthetic blend but I ran across one that deserves our attention. It is called Aeroshell 15W-50 Aviation oil. this one is a premium semisynthetic multigrade for aircraft piston engines.
Now I am one that has a general mistrust of engine oil companies, (i.e.) Castrol and Valvoline both using hydrocracked mineral oils (dino) and calling them synthetic when they do not contain synthetic basestocks at all.
When thinking about aircraft parts or products there exsists standards of the highest level, therefore if you want to avoid the morass or pitfalls of engine oil, you might consider this one. This oil is approved in all Lycoming, Continental and Pratt & Whitney aircraft piston engines in all types of service. Sounds impressive enough.

 

Is semi-synthetic the same as the blended motor oil? If so, is there a threshold percentage of synthetic that the semi must be to be legally labeled 'semi'. If not, then any small percentage makes it a semi or a blend. That would leave a lot of wiggle room for increased profits.

 

It is my understanding that semi-synthetic oils contain no more than 30% synthetic basestocks, and I dug a little deeper and found out the Aeroshell contains over 50% synthetic basestocks.

 

Gary,
what type of base stock is used in this AeroShell product? And why should we ignore the advice of of "The AeroShell Book" from www.shell.com/aviation where it says (pdf page 29):

I trust engine oil companies enough to take Shell's advice not to put their non-API rated oil into my car, and likewise I trust Mobil enough to count on their protection. I'd suggest that anyone that figures they know more about motor oil than the oil & auto manufacturers first go to www.bobistheoilguy.com and learn as much as the folks there do.

 

this is because aircraft piston engines use different materials and are under completely different use enviornments for vehicle engines. they taught us in A&P school to never use JET A fuel or any type of aircraft engine oil in a conventional vehicle engine.

 

I have never seen much discrepence in running clearances on engines. I have an old Motor Manual with cars built back to 1930, and it shows engines having the same basic main and rod bearing oil clearance, same general piston to wall clearance, valve guide clearance, ring gaps, etc as cars built today. The only things that alter it are size. So a larger cylinder gets a bit more clearance than a small one. But at operating temps all those parts tighten up, and thats the whole idea. At operating temp most everything is equal.

I spent many many hours as a youth taking apart engines just to see inside, to see how they were built. All types of engines. I have enjoyed trying to analyse what wore them out, or how they broke, or why they broke. Engines are engines, and it really does not matter what they power. Some are well made, some are not. Some just will not last no matter what you do. But some are jewels, and if the oil is changed with high quality oil, dino or otherwise, they will run for a long period of time. The truth is, most engines break, or wear out prematurely due to neglect, more than anything else. Abuse ranks high, but most engines can tolerate some abuse alot better than neglect. Personally I feel the Ferrari is as well made as anything, and with very good parts, and it should be capable of several hundreds of thousands of miles. I also believe most are unrealistic in terms of mileage covered, with most having odometers rolled back repeatedly. Change oil every 2-3K miles, or at least spring and fall, and you just cant go wrong. I think even Pennzoil would make an engine last if it were at least changed regularly. Myself, I will continue to run 20W50 in summer, and 10W30 in my winter cars. I would only use a synthetic in a diesel in winter, or in a hard driven turbocharged car in summer. In all other cases I see it as a false economy unless the cost is equalised.

I know im getting long winded, and I appologise, but one last point I would like to be considered. I would argue that the one engine in most all of auto history to operate under some of the most extreme conditions, was an old VW beetle engine. Synthetic oils basically did not exist to any real extent, so everyone was left to run whatever dino oil you could find. Oil temps running down the highway in summer could easily top 350 degrees. Yet those lil motors could easily surpass 125K or more miles on a good overhaul regularly. I dont believe any modern oil would significantly change its life expectancy. Usually #3 exhaust valve would stop the engine long before it was worn out.

 

Don, thanks for sending me the links. Yes, I saw the disclaimer which is usual for any product that someone may use for an unintended application. That sure wouldn't scare me off considering the high qualifications of the oil.
I read further and they then qualified their disclaimer with this:
Non-Aviation Use Of Aeroshell Piston Engine Oils. In selecting an Aeroshell piston engine oil for a non-aviation application the properties of the oil must be examined. This will only give an approximate indication as to the expected performance in the specific application. However, such data must be regarded as guidance only. There is no laboratory test that can give a complete prediction of performance in actual use, and the final stage in any decision must involve performance tests in either the actual equipment or in the laboratory/test house under conditions expected in service.
This same site contains all the data and specifications on that oil so any one can compare.
I already have some of this oil and will try it soon and report back one day. I have no fear whatsoever that this very high performer will cause me any problems.

 

Guys, lets NOT compare car engines to JET engines, a Jet is more like an automatic transmission than a piston engine. But in piston aircraft engines, the materials are virtually the same as in a car. Aluminum pistons, steel cranks, cams, rods, aluminum cases. Probably the biggest difference is that they can fluctuate in temperture rapidly. From high altitude at cruise speed, at peak operating temps, than can actually chill within minutes when power is brought back and the plane decends. No, you wouldnt probably want airplane oil in your car, and you certainly dont want car oil in your plane, but viscosity and how it reacts inside each engine is virtually identical. The running clearances are virtually idendical. The oil temps may be slightly higher in an aircraft, but they operate just fine on plain old dino oil, and can last decades.

 

Krowbar, your right its just oil and just plain old piston engines, nothing to exotic or different here.

 

What kind of car are you putting this into?
I know we've already debated the value of using DATA to justify a new snake oil that's been found to add to one's car, but does the car you're going to put this into have catalysts? How badly is the additive package in this oil going to contaminate them? Why not go ahead and get an oil analysis done. Ali and I have given a link to the place we both use to do ours. Or go check what anyone at www.bobistheoilguy.com has to say about this idea. I'm sure your engine will keep running and won't suffer a "major oil-related breakdown", but how long will your O2 sensor(s) last? Go get an emissions test (preferably without acetone in the gas to confuse the results), then another one at the design life of your emissions system (which could be 50K-120K) and see how it compares to the design target for that age (you make good on the testing part and I can find the numbers).

 

Don, 246 Dino, no sensors, no catalyst, no problem!

 

Ditto on what AEHauss said on BobIsTheOilGuy website if you want to learn about oil this is the site, especially the UAO forum. Regards, Vern

 

Don and Vern I have been to the site. Thanks! Here's another very good one, its a book called; "The Motor Oil Bible" by Mike Kaufman E-mail:
[email protected] lots of great knowledge and many oil comparisons.

 

Well we keep digging and we find that the Aeroshell shares some of the same specifications as the fully synthetic Redline 15-50 except that the Aeroshell has anti-wear additives that were reduced in auto oils in 1996 because of problems with interference with smog control devices such as catalytic converters.
So the Aeroshell oil probably gives greater anti-wear or anti-scuff properties, but does it compensate for the fully polyolester oil of the Redline, and for that matter what else is different between the two? They both share virtually the same pour point and flash point with the Redline having a slight edge, but the Aeroshell having the anti corrosion inhibitors which would help in areas of high humidity. Other than that it seems that they are both oils that would be compatible with auto engines. they are both oils that provide exellent protection from friction/heat and it is just up to you to decide if you want some of the bennefits of a semi-synthetic, and to those I am not sure what they are. Any help?