I'm a little confused. Did 0814 burn at both St. Jovite and at Le Mans, or was it 0812 at Le Mans and then 0814 at St. Jovite, or vice versa? Thanks -Jarrett
Back in the 1970s Chinetti, Jr. had 0812 in the showroom in Greenwich, CT with what was called the Bob Peak body on it. In the early eighties he began planning to restore it back to original and installing the "Bob Peak" body on another chassis. Coco had designed the Peak body. One of the two cars was burnt to the ground in Canada while Coco was driving it. He also has/had the remains of a 250LM that a client had catch fire on the Merit Parkway in CT. Marcel Massini probably knows which car that was and where it is now. Chinetti once told me he was having the LM rebuilt along with the two 250Ps.
0812 burned at Le Mans 15 June 1963. Rebuilt. Raced next at Sebring 21 March 1964. October 1964 sold by factory to Chinetti. 1967/68 rebodied as Coupé with gullwing doors for Robert M. Peak. 1968 shown at NY auto show. 0814 was sold September 1964 by factory to Chinetti. 12 June 1966 raced at St. Jovite by Chinetti-Kolb, caught fire, burnt to the ground. Marcel Massini
Quoting the cover article on the Chinetti-Peak "275P" in Car & Driver, August 1968: "It is called the 275P, and is a rebodied 275LM race car...." "It began when Chinetti Senior was off on one of his many trips and steady customer Peak....and son Coco were wandering in the dark corners of his service department. There, lonely, dusty, and unwanted was the mid-engined 275, a 3.3 liter racer; almost unsalable, traded by 'some dilettante who never drove it'. According to Chinetti, there never were more than three or four 275's alive at any one time and it is his conviction that this is the 1964 LeMans winning car which was driven by Jean Guichet and Nino Vaccaralla." It would seem that even in 1968, when these events were reasonably fresh, there was lots of misinformation floating around! Image Unavailable, Please Login
#0812 in Le Mans 1963. The car was leading the race but caught fire. Here is how Willy Mairesse was able to stop the car. Anoter color photo with the car on fire. (b&w photo is from Le Maine newspaper, color photo is from Paris-Match). See also this thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88265&highlight=ferrari+%230812 Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Which car did they use to make the buck/mould? I have seen a SWB from Protauto and it was not even close to the original! To replicate a 250P you need or original bucks (gone I think) or use Wang's or Bardinon's, even then look close to detailing because almost all P's are different in detail. You need many old photos and computer/autocad etc for sizes/measurements. Would be good to see both cars back in near future (racing!!) Tom
There is a pending court case about whether that car (Violati) is a fake. There is another car claiming to be the real 0818.
Yes, I know... Fabrizio Violati's and Egon Hofer's cars, both with #0818 parts. But this one is Violati's. (copyright PMImage Photography). Image Unavailable, Please Login
I thought Violati's car was already FC certified? And from what I heard (other case) is that 0720, pontoon testarossa was also FC certified............
Violati's car cannot be 0818, because Hofer's has a clear continuity, so unless Ferrari built 2 #0818's......................... More likely to be a %$^&&**$%$
So when combining the two: original chassis, engine, gearbox, instruments etc = almost original 0818, so something like Ex Sachs/Maier's 312P would be a good option, though unrealistic in near future I think. There was a 250LM (red one) at Piet Roelofs 10 years ago or so, also a replica (well known!) I think this one was the one with original cross member and owner build a complete car around it! Make some papers et voila! a new/old car is reborn!
I'm dragging this up from the past because I just came across a picture of 0814 burning at the St. Jovite event in June 1966. Sorry about the poor quality, but this is from my new stash of old Competition Press & Autoweek magazines. According to the article: Gary Dulmace, driving Tom Ashwell's brand-new Elva-BMW, lost control of the car on the downhill turn two. After rolling several times, he finally ended up in an inverted position, and the car caught fire. Fortunately, Dulmace was able to extricate himself from the overturned car, and crawl away before the flames completely engulfed the car. Seconds later, Luigi Chinetti Jr drove his 2 year old 3.3 liter prototype Ferrari through the wall of flames that covered almost the full width of the track. Gas that had been leaking from Chinetti's car for the past few laps, and for which he was about to be black-flagged, caught fire. But Chinetti did not know this until about half a mile later when flag marshals finally signaled to him. Chinetti pulled over to the side, leaped out, and the marshalls had extinguishers on the car seconds later but emptied them before they could get the fire out. Meanwhile, all the other extinguishers had been diverted to the scene of the original accident, and by the time they got some to Chinetti's car, it too was a mass of flames.....Chinetti was uninjured...the race was red flagged for two hours... These old magazines from the Sixties are horrifying with the number of fatal accidents reported! Image Unavailable, Please Login
i forwarded this thread to my friend matthew peak (bob peak's son) to see if he can add some color to the story on this car. marcel made an assertion that bob peak was coco's backer...i think that may be inaccurate. matthew may be able to provide clarity on that too. as a note: when i first met coco on october 31, 1977, he had a picture on the wall of the car. when i pointed it out and said, "look, that is the chinetti-peak ferrari!, " he looked astonished that i knew the car! last comment, matthew has the original art of the car, an original painting by his father bob. he has said if he ever decided to sell it...he would sell it to me. while i would never hold him to that, i was flattered! http://www.bobpeak.com/art.cfm?catid=7 for those interested, i attached the link to the original art by bob peak. best, pcb
i think this is inaccurate too. the car was designed by bob peak and not built for bob peak. i hope matthew will weigh in on this too. pcb
ALL started as "legit", nee, 250P cars. ALL got different bodies-not only in the first year- but distinctly different noses in the following year(s) as "275Ps"(210 engines), and different again as the final cars were stuffed with 163 and 209(?) blocks as most cars were run as "330Ps" ...along side the later framed: 0818, 0820, 0822 ...everyone gets it I think...those were the NEE 330P chassis-but, ALL chassiss ran with 4-litre mills, at some point, somewhere... There are some stylistic differences, but it is all minor, mostly, cosmetic stuff... Driving wise: Surtees himself opined to us that the cars were a tad underpowered as 250s, a bit of an over weighted/overpowered and ill mannered pig, as 4 litres, but, "just right" as 3.3 litres...best balanced-a "winner here, boys" In truth, and the records will bear me out, these cars-in all iterations of essentially the same car-won nearly everything, for 2-3 years. Only the full on FORD, and later PORSCHE factory ALL OUT efforts tilted the field away from the P car class of Ferrari comp cars. 0810 started out with the clutch IN the bell housing, a-l-a LM, but went to the rear of the box in final trim...We have pics of this, as do most all of you..it also ran as a 330 car at...sebring(??)in 1964/65{my memory is awful on this stuff, and my apologies at being to lazy to look it up, its not that critical, as it an "essentially anecdotal" sort of a reference}. The FIRST P cars{IMHO only}-the DINO SPs-the Chiti shark nose cars, still had, as did LMs, riveted fuel tanks... The "12 cylinder P-cars"-these class of cars-were the first to have WELDED seams in their Ji-mon-gous fuel tanks-which ran on each rocker panel, and, had fuel running inside the frame tubes in places as well..geez, welding integrity in the frame joints and seams is sort-a-gettin' seriously important here, huh? The fuel filler necks were tubes which ran from the Monza style caps, down 4 inch vertical downpipes-over 2 feet in length-to the tanks... Re-fueling mishaps caused fires, improperly/just plain not 100% seated caps were vapour plumes awaiting an ignition source...enormous flash of flame, sheet alloy melts, rubber hoses, perhaps tyres, plastic side curtains and windscreen, then no more combustables.. 'cept the Mag castings...if they go, its a 45 minute pyre.. I have seen original tanks, they are downright, horrifyingly, scary...countless fatigue fractures, dents, chafe fatigues, all "repaired"..sort of, back in period....No FAA airworhtiness certificate here! Time for NEW. 0812 was running away with it at LeMans in 1963 as a Team car, when it caught fire at the-you guessed it-the front of a fuel tank, which burned brightly-and quickly-until extinguished. Pictures are available here, on this site, elsewhere...after the factory rebuilt the car, it was a SEFAC 1st OA car at: ADAC 1000, AND, Sebring(this car was GOOD at Sebring-3 years, 3 PODIUMS!)...look at the pics and consider THAT fact... Then compare it to the pics of the St. Jovite fire of 0814(essentially the same type of burn-from actual witnessess AND participants), the burns are so similar, it is easy to see why they are so frequently confused. If memeory serves ME correctly, when questioned on the subjects, Dick Fritz opined that to the best of HIS memory of the incident, it was that: "it looked worse than it seemed, and that we probably "just fixed the car," because after all the metal of body work being so thin after it burns/melts AWAY, just frame and big stuff is left that does not burn so easily, it just wasn't THAT bad...lots of dirt on the car though." Incredibly cavalier-in todays mindset-but through the prism of several decades of time, where no rational person would project valuations being what they are today, causes one to realize that "just an old racing car" was all it was, and we treated them as such, until they were completely, and thoroughly, used up...and we ALL "hoped some one asleep at the switch" would actually give some money for this "junk." I digress.. These cars are lighter, sparser versions of an LM-in lay terms-and a fire looks bad, but the body is really all there is-aside from fuel and rubber..they ALL got rebuilt, and run again, for years, and years. Just to be clear here-having had an LM next to a P-car-they ARE similar, BUT an LM IS NOT a 250P with a roof. It is beyond the tanks, the rear banana lower body work of the clam, interior, etc. P frame is lighter guage and there is "LESS of it"-PERIOD. They are CLOSE relatives-NO QUESTION there, but, they are NOT, "roadster, hot rodded LMs. These lighter guage factors leads to countless fatigue cracks, and areas for future potential weldment/joint integrityfailures, these cars were ALL prone to burns... The Prototipo LM-the 1 and ONLY 250LM-is famous for a re-fueling pit fire at a BIG FIA race-LM or Sebring, or, Daytona??? While a NART car? Same old saga-LOOKS AWFUL, racing again-SOON...NART was one of-was the most successful concessionaires. 0814 took over the lead and was the LM winner that year... 0810 was second, as I recall... 0816 was the winner the following year. NONE has the original body-NONE. Only 1(I'm told) has the complete, total original frame, 1 has almost none-but SO WHAT!!! {ALL scurrulous rumors and unsubstantiated as fact, by this poster} These are NOT road cars, or, 50s "gentlman" boy racer cars which you can drive home after the race/event!!!..a-la-TdF, SWB, TRC, Mondials, MMs, Exports, HOT Cal Spyders{lets be real here...forget TRs-those are RACING cars, as are GTOs, ALL Dinos and SPs are F1 driver required cars as well...those are NOT anything but WORKS cars needing works pilots} These were all driven by the F1 drivers, as WORKS cars, for ALL the marbles , every time out. Original motors, gearboxes, and bodies, PUHLEEEZ...the facotry did not care of such things-WHY would they? Only scrutineers at the events care of such things... I have been told by men who raced these models-for real-suspect that: of all P cars made, perhaps 60+% do NOT have the original frames that they had on the day they left the Factory on the transporters. Personally, I have no idea as to the veracity of this opinion, but it sems realistic to me based on actual purpose and actual use of these cars and by the men who drove them... The ultimate crazy quip is the: "was such and such correct?-in a picture of the "other one" at the "other race" it looks different...' What was correct, was what won the race, and nothing else mattered-period. These cars ARE different than the Road and Sports/GT cars, AND, MUST be viewed accordingly, as a different creature, that lived more savage lives, in a more savage world, Only to survive, at all, to be vintage raced-in any capacity-is a near miracle. The degree of MECHANICAL restoration required, in part due to past lives-and incidents-combined with the car's inherent capabilities-and current monetary valuations-{only 2 or 3 cars sold in 25-30 years? ALL rumors-only...their locations, and ownership, are well documented due to rarity...yes?}. Thus, making it a track safe ride, is an enormously costly venture...and enormously TIME consuming, as well... But what a show it would be at Laguna in August..... Is 0810 coming? I assume with all of the posts, it must be??? 0816-Pierre has not had it out of France in YEARS... 0812 and 0814 are still with CoCo(yes?)in Italy?? 0820 Pierre sold(Oregon???), and the other , the ex-Ecclstone car is In Pacific NW as well?, but never been seen since they got that brace of cars in late 90s.. Fabrizio's(RIP) ex-Prothroe, long tailed car, got "dog tags", but there is, apparently, considerable consternation from the granstands on this topic...{how do you certify a car which was "written off" by the factory... in a fatality related testing crash?"} I digress yet again...All one needs at that juncture is one of the period correct transport trucks! These cars-P cars-are my personal faves{could ya tell?)for the 40 years I've been doing this stuff. I've been up close and personal, to ALL 4, at 1 time or another-I was offered to buy each of the 4 of them, at 1 time, or another, in last 35-40 years{0810, as it is pictured above in 1973, was the first-and by far the cheapest-I didn't do it because I could buy an LM for 10K, so the P was MUCH too expensive, and at the time, Don Fong seemed...well...I was unwilling to scam my trustees for money I couln't afford to lose to THAT guy...for one of those "italian red things"} Consequently, I have come to know these rather well, and not at all from the "Historian" perspective-but that of a grease under the nails/practitioner perspective. Frankly, better so with each passing day. As we age, true principle lust and interest lies- for me-solely in the area of what makes them tick, how they are made and assembled(and why)as nearly all spares are fabricated, what corners were "designed in" as areas to: "wiggle and cheat", based on application and acceptable loss margins...design in the failure/weak point to control the failures and confine costs such that-as the CFOs call "cost certainty"..Enzo was, if anything, a man who kept his eye on the bottom line-always...I have asked SantaClauz for blueprints this Christmas, if I'm a good boy...who knows?? I spend my vacations trying to strip mine the remaining/surviving men's memories of technical experiences and unexpected, real world pratfall areas, and, for ANY spare parts/boxes in the attics or garages. Men who were active when these were campaigned, there are precious few who remain-especially here in USA. How they handled the cars in situ, in season, in era, is more valuable than ANY notes, or pictures, or "stories", or other non-"we were there" scenarios. Real men, with REAL experience racing-NOT stories, NOT Vintage racing, NOT SCCA 7 years later...JUST, old guys, that mostly say: "We did it this way because": that was what worked at Daytona, N'Ring, Spa, LeMans, the Targa, etc. [For example:The noses were changed as the sesons evolved, because they didn't "work" in original release iteration-primarily, heat dissipation was the problem-not enough was understood, yet, about the aerodynamics UNDER the car, around it, in front of it, behind it...The curvy, early looks, are 'pretty"(old way), but the "slab-ier" siding flows better-don't know why, but it WORKS BETTER for the driver, and, ITS FASTER, and IT HANDLES with less effort.] This was an exciting, seat of the pants, ERA. Form and beauty still ruled over function-initially. Stone cold results, cruel as they may be, ruled the roost...as it should based on the razor thin margins of differences then existant in that racing. Thus, it was also the END of this ERA-things were now changing-almost MONTHLY, not yearly... Did I mention the increases-monthly-of costs, as well... The money, one's results, are even more important, and affect the MONEY supply from sponsorhip accounts...The space age/space race has affected, it seems, ALL aspects of manufacturing technologies...worldwide. The last artist's rendering/design for a P-car was the 330P/4-it utilised the burgeoning-yet ubiquitous-aerotunnel(wind tunnel)DURING the design process...but not yet were the bodies being designed by engineers FIRST, with a thought to how it looked as an afterthought. Hell, beauty is still a requisite and paramount consideration even today for Ferrari-and Italian culture as a whole-as oppossed to the computer generated models emenating from all of the design "houses" in Germany In many ways, Ferrari is to be admired for the accomplishments of the P4 in this aspect of form over function, while being a machine, as opposed to the FORD, all out, win whatever, however, at no expense, rather a soul-less victory in the end...but wait, Ferrari won the Championship in 1967 ??? REMEMBER: For a perspective/gut check: a NART, privateer LM, won the 24 hours of LeMans in 1965, YOU CAN'T WIN, IF YOU CAN'T FINISH! Despite this notion, what is remarkable is also the notion that: some components are designeed and manufactured with a clear operational envelope/life span measured in hours before mean time failure! Others are, clearly, in a hundred hours, others yet, in hundreds of hours-which is, effectively speaking here, years. ALL things are finite, and are expected to be D&I, R&R, on a schedule..."SMOH" so to speak, for those aircraft guys out there...and as such, with proper attention to fuel system issues, the integrity of major frame stress load areas, these P cars-the beginning of the final wave of the golden age of racing(culminating in the greatest sports car in history)which ended as the decade itself ended-alomg with Ferrari and racing as we all know, love, cherish, and worship so dearly-could and should be able to last forever. I shall endeavour, to my last breath in a shop environment, to do just that-as I've managed to keep it/them still ensconced in my field of view... Someday, we'll se you at the track. Whereever you 250/275P-Cars are... "Let's go racing, and see which car is fastest!!??"
Very interesting and True. One minor point. P cars, with minor tweaking, can be driven on the street. I've driven, 0846, 0854, and Dino Competizione (206S) many happy street miles. You do have to be careful and the Mechanical FI of 0846 takes some learning to keep from stalling at Traffic lights but it can be done. I'm going to take the liberty of re posting your thoughts in the 0846 and 0854 thread. Best
Yes, Jim, Ken Starbird drove 0810 regularly on the street. I still remember the wild ride I had in it. 335S is correct about the clutch placement; we used to compare his P to his LM, and that was a notable difference. After all these years, I still see Ken once in a while, although we are both somewhat removed from the old Ferrari scene as we knew it.
