Dyno #'s This Weekend For 308 Intake/TB Mod

I'm thinking 4HP too. Looking forward to the results....

 

Tommy, TrackMasters only has room for one car inside at a time. After our morning drive, it would probably be most comfortable if we go back to my place and do the "dissection" on your car in my garage and carry the various parts over to the shop in my car. We'll know what tools we'll need after taking the TB and Plenum off your car, and we can do the parts swaps/tuning inside TrackMasters while my car is on their dyno setup. I like the idea about also doing the Krank Vents and K&N, but we'll do those as separate runs if we have time. At this point, I'm paying for an hour on the dyno setup
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Regarding the stump pulling mondial with CIS, what percentage of losses are you factoring in for the drivetrain? Im assuming for the test the dyno will be calibrated for the lack of a 1:1 final drive ratio so we get accurate numbers?

P.

 

As a former owner of a dyno, I would like to suggest that you do at least three pulls, five if you have the time, in each set up, you will end up with a much better average then if you try and do too much R&D with to many different set ups. Get your baseline first, do your change, and then go back to the first set up to track if you really made any progress at all. Remember, it is not so much the #'s that you get, it is the ability to repeat them that makes progress, otherwise you are just fooling yourself with one time information. Water,oil and ambient temps will be very important, try and match them as close as possible for each run, and not just with the stock gauges, use an IR gun, you will see a much better result. Good luck and have fun.

 

typically with the transverse drive Ferraris, 17% is close. As with all dynos, they are best used to measure changes on a given car and not as good for cross comparing engines. However, 227 at the wheels is very impressive for a 2v Kjet Ferrari - these (308 GTBi, GTSi, M8) are often showing rwhp at well below 200, like 180 or so.

 

QVs are normally about 195-200 (on a dynojet), so 227 from a 2Vi is very good.

 

Not an answer, but related, although off topic a bit. I've got a buddy with a head shop and I've decided to take my QV heads up there, thow them on the flow bench and get some numbers (flow, velocity, efficiency and such). We plan to get some baseline numbers using a stock intake (if I can track one down), my blower intake, a multi-throttlebody intake. Then take a good long look at what if anything makes sense to improve them. I'll post something when I do it. I'm thinking I'll even make some dyno runs with whatever I decide to do before I put the blower back on, I'll get a good baseline that way to know what's working and what isn't.

 

You are welcome to use my qv stock intake for your test, I am always up for a bit of fun.

 

I haven't looked closely yet, and I'm at my office instead of at home... what's involved in remove/replace of the plenum and tb on a QV (which is what we'll be doing for the dyno test)?

 

The plenum has studs that secure it to each double riser by a pair of nuts. If I remember correctly, you have to remove the throttle body to get to the pair of nuts under it. Access to the rear nuts is pretty awkward unless you remove the bonnet.

A flex head gear wrench & one of those C-shaped manifold wrenches are the tools you need. Pretty sure those are 8mm studs, so the the nuts will take 13mm wrenches.

Don't think you have to pull the injector lines, but doing so will make the job easier.

TIPS:
The thick rubber gaskets between the risers & plenum have metal sleeves around the studs. Sometimes the sleeves stick on the studs instead of staying in the gasket. Then it falls off just when you've got the stud dead center over the hole in the riser... Yup, your engine just ate it.
Moral: Make sure you've got the sleeves under control.
As always, best to spray all the nuts the day before with PB Blaster.

 

Hmmm, and I also found more detail in post #4 in the thread at http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16536 which said it took him an hour to remove it, though less to put it back on.

It sounds like we may be just doing a throttle body swap without the plenum this time around. Of course, that will also give us more time to do other swaps, such as K&N vs UFI paper, and the Krank vents.

Presuming the bored throttle body shows some improvement, I'll have my mechanic remove mine and the plenum send them off to be done and then have it redyno'd when it's put back together (with no other engine changes). I'll already have a baseline from the stock setup from tomorrow's pulls with Tommy, though of course ambient conditions will likely be different.

 

I'm sure you know this, but I'll remind everyone that comparing the whole graph and not just the peak numbers is important. You may find that while you may not make that much more hp, it may come in earlier and stay giving more comparative 'umph' down low. For example, while you may only gain 6-10 hp by 7500, you might carry that 10 all the way down and have even a bit more at lower end. Anyway, lots of possibilities here for stuff besides peak numbers.
Good luck, and thanks for doing this!
rt

 

I'll guess 6hp.

Also interested in the results (since I have both).

 

I would strongly suggest to test the 70mm TB with the plenum opened up to fit. With the stock plenum hole being 65mm, it would block much if not all of the added flow. Much like putting a 4 barrel carb on a 2 barrel manifold. Ya, you can get adaptors for this foolish mod, but they are restrictive to the flow that a 4 barrel is capable of.
If you have the chance to play with air filters/housings, try adding a 3/8" shim, made of rubber, wood or whatever between the element and the top. Flow tests showed a worthwhile gain there!
BTW: I'll take 10 HP!
Kermit
Dont be suprised to find that the much maligned K&N puts out more HP than the UFI. The bench showed more flow* with the aftermarket oiled one.

* That is simply flow, NOT implying dirt catching ability!
Enjoy the test!

 

Here's the K&N flow test versus other filters (note: less resistance is *better* for flow):
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For tomorrow's test, there just won't be time to do a plenum remove and replace... I only get the dyno for an hour, including any "tuning" (in this case parts swaps). However, as I mentioned in my previous post, we're also setting a baseline for my stock TB and plenum before I send it off for mods, and re-dyno after reinstallation. That will clearly be a better/more meaningful test of the full monty.

Thanks for the other misc comments/tips.

 

You mean to RAISE the top of the housing, or to PUSH the K&N down in the base keeping the top at the normal position?

 

We had our "dyno day" as planned, and I want to share a few items:

This was my first dyno experience -- and it was fascinating and fun and is highly recommended. Back-to-back runs (what they call "pulls") are AMAZINGLY consistent -- the lines overlay on top of each other almost perfectly if you don't make any changes to your car in between. The dyno shop (TrackMasters) provides not only a print out of the graphic runs if you wish, but also the datafile and software that can read the files and pick-and-choose the different runs so you can compare them any way you want for hp, torque, fuel-air mix and/or any other data collected.

Now for the tweaking on my US 308QV. Changes/swaps were made one at a time so it's true apples to apples. We'd planned to put Tommy's Krank Vents in my car, but he found that one of them was leaking (they're supposed to be one-way valves) so we didn't try them. But here's what we found:

Adjusting fuel mixture (it had been running a little lean) produced an INCREASE/GAIN of 6hp consistent from run to run.

1-year-old K&N versus new UFI paper filter produced an INCREASE/GAIN of 3hp consistent run to run.

Tommy's bored throttle body in place of my stock one produced a DECREASE/LOSS of 6hp run to run.

Like they say in CSI, "The evidence is just the evidence; it says what it says."
Here also, the data is just the data; it says what it says.

I'm not going to get into more details or interpretation yet. Tommy plans to post here a bit later tonight.

 

A loss with the larger t-body, what a great investment that would be! Where's Steven Rochlin when you need him? Thanks for the honest dyno results, I figured no gain with the T-body and a decrease in torque at low rpms but not a HP loss. What were the actual HP and TQ numbers at the wheels? Im sure someone will jump in and mention the lack of port matching to the new throttle body and intake but that will probably just get back the 6hp you lost.

 

I didn't ask for a print out of the spaghetti of all the runs and am waiting for the the datafile to be emailed to me so I can have access to the individual details (if I'd known better, I'd have brought a flash memory stick with me to the dyno shop). I didn't jot down the torque numbers, but the peak HP numbers varied from 169 to 180 at the rear wheels... a little lower than I hoped for, but I have some issues to take care of. The main thing for today was to do comparisons of changes apples-to-apples, not to really "tune" the car... that's for another time.

 

A loss of power with the throttle body just doesnt make any sense. I could see it remaining the same, or making more, but less? I wonder if its possible your mixture dropped out, because to lose power, something was happening somewhere. Possibly more airflow but it leaned out to far? Strange at any rate. Good on you guys for trying this stuff, its how we all learn.

By the way, if we accept a geartrain loss of 17% as others have claimed, 169 HP would equate to 205 at the crank Kind of anemic there. 180 HP would be 240 at the crank, and as I believe you have a QV, Mike, that sounds right on for rated power. What was the engine setup at that low power reading? did you do the air filter and mixture changes with both TB's? You said the filter changed the power, but I appologise, which filter made more power?

 

At least if we can document what works or what doesnt, we have a better direction where not to head and no one is guessing. My hat is off to everyone involved in trying this, I think it is just the coolest stuff. I do not for the life of me understand a power loss with that TB, and feel it actually did something, but the fuel flow or engine couldnt keep up. Very odd.

 

Amazing it produced a loss as well. The two I had ported for my 348 resulted in a INCREASE/GAIN of 5hp on the dyno. I am with krowbar as I think things should have remained the same or increased unless the extra air is screwing things up some how.

Was the loss in hp in peak HP or did the chart show a loss across the board?

 

A wild guess but just maybe those guys at Ferrari knew what they were doing in matching the induction to fuel delivery.

The fact that you found that you were running lean and got 6hp by richening the mixture made the day worth it.
This leads one to think that the $52 kit for the jettronic that I posted earlier may be a good deal.....at least it's reversible if it doesn't help.

Question now is how do you return the bored out TB back to spec and get back what you lost????

Tommy.....sorry for your loss

 

Check your math. A USA QV is rated at 235 HP; 17% of that is 40HP, 235-40=195, so with 180hp as my best at the rear wheels, I'm short at least 15hp from what is expected.

We did about a 70 mile country road caravan this morning, so my first dyno pulls were just as I had the car running all morning. However, I had already suspected it had gone slightly lean as I had a couple of backfires when downshifting during the morning, which I normally never have unless it's gone lean and I need to adjust the mixture. That produced a consistent baseline. Next change was the air filter... I took OUT the K&N I use all the time, and put in the UFI filter, and the next three pulls were consistent with a 3HP loss from the baseline (meaning the K&N gives a 3HP net gain). K&N went back in, and we swapped the throttle body and saw a 6hp loss from the baseline. Swapped back to my stock TB and started playing with fuel mixture and got it up to 180hp at the peak, but that was perhaps running a bit rich.