308 suspension bushings

Seems to be a lot of suspension work going on...maybe the winter months. I was hoping someone that has done this recently could give me some advise. I ordered new shocks and all the related bushings. Also ordered replacement bushings for both sway bars. When I asked about new bushings for the front and rear A-arms I was surprised that there are some 24 or so and that it would cost around $1300. (Rubber) Is this a ball park figure??? How many total bushings are and where is a good place to purchase them. Thanks

 

energy suspension has them in urethane for about $200 a complete set. If you want rubber check out Superperformance in the UK.

 

Fchat sponsor Nick Forza has them, they are MUCH LESS than $1,300 for parts PLUS better than stock. Energy Suspension 'G' are what many of us use, as the stock units are lackluster IMHO, but i guess decades old stock design being what it was... Go new, go ES...

 

Those new urethane ones can be noisy in the winter. Mine are. Car feels MUCH better, though.

 

Dr Tommy Cosgrove said "urethane bushings can be noisy in the winter"- do you mean squeeky ? (what type of noise?)
Steve

 

If you don't lube the hell out of them with silicone, they will sound like Mickey and Minnie gettin it on with every bump you hit.

Yes, they squeak. Worthy trade off for the increased performance they offer.

Go with ES from Nick's or another source.

Good luck,
John

 

squeaky

It is really not that big of a deal, though. I don't drive my car a lot in the colder months so I don't give it many chances to bother me. I just happened to have it out for a little while last week and noticed it again. It was about 35 outside.

I can't remember it being a problem the rest of the year.

 

Hello,

don't forget the outer ones on the rear hub. They are not rubber but a PTFE friction bearing.
They are prohibitively expensive if purchased as a genuine Ferrari part.
Usually it's sufficient to replace the friction bushes and the thrust washers. All the other stuff involved here usually doesn't show signs of wear.
carl888 sells them on ebay regularly at a very competitive price and shipping costs from Australia.
Currently no auctions, but you can contact him directly as well. ( FChat nickname is the same )

Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

Attached is a photo of the rear outer bushings in the a-arm and spread out on the bench. Highlighted is the coated thrust washer that might need replacing if it's pitted, rusty, etc. The coated side goes towards the hub, or pointed away from the tiny locating pin you will find inside these components.
I just dismantled the parts, cleaned them, and reassembled with hi-heat moly grease.

Also, a photo of the inner bushings (energy suspension 13.3101G- need 16 of them) I put in my car (308). One photo is the inner bushing itself, and one photo intalled in an a-arm.

Hope this helps
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did you check the bushings for play ? Usually if they are making noises, they are worn as well.
Most people lubricate them with grease. I don't want to start a new discussion about this, but the manufacturer of these bearings does strongly mention in the referring mechanical design handbook and application catalogue, that grease lubricaton is NOT recommended, because it accelerates some 'formation of grinding paste', what increases wear significantly.
They are definitely designed for dry use. Otherwise grease lubricated brass bushings would have been the way to go.
The only application when lubrication is permitted is, when the PTFE bushings work with fresh oil lubrication.


Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

Martin- Thanks for the info- very interesting. You mentioned literature about these solid bushing- where is this found? I would like to read it if possible.

I did check for any looseness- and all seemed fine. The car has about 60K miles, and there was a creak in the rear right side if you pushed on the bumper corner. When they came apart, there was some grease build-up crusted on the chrome bushings (see attached photo of the ugliest one, and a photo sfter cleaning) so I think you are correct in that the grease will accumulate grit and speed up the wear rate. Hopefully, the rubber seals can keep most of the grit out of the bushing. The chrome finish after cleaning seemed perfect, and the coated thrust washers seemed a little worn and the coating was not consistent throughout the face of the washer. I debated and figured a thin layer of grease would be better than dry. We will see, and these are not difficult to remove again if a problem arises. If I take it apart again, I will replace the coated washers with new.

Thanks again- great information!
John
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Pardon my ignorance, but can someone post a master parts list of all ES bushings used for the 308 suspension? Complete with part numbers/quantity/style/size/location? I don't want to tear my suspension system apart just yet to figure this out....

 

Where's the fun in that?

 

That allows me to 'shop around' for price and put a complete kit together - shocks, springs, A-Arm bushings, spring bushings, sway bar bushings, etc. in one box. I would think its alittle tough to take measurements of a replacement bushing when the original is mostly deformed/disintegrated. There have been calls in earlier threads for a bushings parts list - nobody has stepped up.

Plus, I like to have ALL of my parts on-hand before I start a job, so I don't have to stop half-way when something is on backorder and my car is in pieces, undriveable, while I wait for something. Been there, done that, and I'm a firm believer that when you're paying for labor, a five-day job should NOT take eight weeks to complete.

On a side note, I'd like to hear of how poly bushings are tac-welded in place without melting the bushing.

 

I pushed the poly bushing out, then did the welding and then pushed the poly bushing back in.

 

Michael-

The problem with doing a complete list for anything like this is the fact that these cars differ sometimes, and the only way to know for sure is to check out the particular car. I have info for an 84 Euro 308QV, but is this exactly the same as a 78 US 308? Or a GT4? I have no idea.

That being said, for an 84 308 euro -

The a-arm bushing# is posted above. You need 16.
The only other ES bushing for 308 suspensions that installs without modification is the sway bar "D" bushing that connects the sway bar to the frame. This is determined by the diameter of your sway bar- so you will need to measure and then buy them. Mine are 18mm in diameter so I used 9.5122R (each box has two bushingsyou need 2 boxes- and the brackets may need a slight grind to get around the mounting studs). I bought all ES bushings from Autozone.

No welding required- the new inner bushings fit into the factory outer sleeve- so the original factory outer sleeve stays welded to the a-arm. This is how I have done mine- but you may want to weld- that's up to you. Removing the inners (poly) before welding is a good idea. This is not possible with rubber bushings, as far as I know.

All other parts I bought from Superformance (drop-link bushings, rack bushings, etc)-
http://www.superformance.co.uk/

The website is very well done with prices. I would even think about buying everything from them- their rubber a-arm bushings are priced about the same as ES. Shipping was not bad.
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Hi John,

The manufacturer has thorough informations online. Here you find some interesting informations. Note the passage about lubrication and 'paste formation'.

www.medias.uk.ina.com/medias/en!hp.info/PAP..P10*UK*5;aDrJ15VsrGx4

I run my own mechanical engineering and design business and we use these PTFE bearings extensively - up to an internal diameter of 60mm - on injection moulding machines, on rotating assemblies, when there's any danger that oil or grease could contaminate the plastics.

Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

Good stuff- thanks Martin. So, we are talking about the "chrome" solid bushings- correct? This "chrome" is similar to "permaglide"? Or, are we talking about the coated washers? This coating has been refered to as "teflon".


I'm wondering what is meant by:

"If grease lubrication is unavoidable in exceptional cases, the bearing should be relubricated regularly in order to counteract paste formation."

Obviously- this is not an "unavoidable" situation. Should I take it apart again, or just run it and see if noises arise? Mine must have been taken apart in the past and greased- explaining the found crud.

If assembled dry, how do I prepare the mating surface?

Sorry for the slight hijack,

Thanks again.

 

John,

no, the chrome solid bushings turn inside the Permaglide bushings. There are big steel bushings on the A-arm. Easy to see. Inside of these - not so easy to discover - , there are the Permaglide bushings / plain bearings - pressed in -which only have a wall thickness of around 1mm. The movement of the A-arm occurs between the solid chrome bushings and the Permaglide bushing.

Of course repeated greasing is not an unavoidable situation, but for my taste, unpracticable. Because it is unrealistic to dismantle the suspension several times during one year.
You can do that on a machine with a maintenance schedule containing thorough lubrication once a month and if you get easy to all the bearings. But on a vehicle suspension ?

You can wait till noises come back. No damage can happen. It's only a sometimes annoying noise.
And you can replace the Permaglide bushings and washers at any time.

Best Regards

Martin

 

I forgot to reply on this. Teflon is PTFE and Permaglide is a PTFE product.
Both the bushings in the A-arms and the washers are PTFE plain bearings with steel backing.

Best Regards

Martin

 

O.K., now I get it. So- to replace these permaglide bushings, the a-arms need to come off and the new bushings are pressed in.

I think I will wait on that and see how it goes.

Thanks for this info Martin- I really appreciate it.

 

Mike
I was trying to come up with a list of stuff to do my rebuild and got a lot of great advise on this board. I started to search different venders and had too many guestions and was not sure of what I was ordering. I decided to go with TRutland's kits (less hassle plus I'm chicken). I'll list the prices here so you will have something to compare to. Shock Kit (ad states "New Koni shocks, bushings, & boots kit for all Ferrari 308" $844 all four corners. Front sway bar bushing kit $127.50, rear sway bar kit $146.25. This does not include shipping. Now, I'm sure you could track down better prices but I didn't want the hassle of getting something wrong and screwing up or have to return things. Plus I wanted to stay original as possible therefore Konis plus I understand that poly bushing can be noisy, may need modifed in someway, besides I'm told that unless you are going to track your car they really aren't necessary. Now the wheel bearings if I understood them(TRutland) correctly are about $200 for both inner and outer for both side rear. I'm going to remove them first and take them to a local bearing place to see if SKF makes them. If so I'll post the price and how to obtain them. A-arm bushings are something else...my head is spinning. I may get the poly ones (inner bushings) but the outer bustings and bearings I'm confused. Just read a thread that has me worried about my outer bushing. Will have to inquire about what's up with them. Too much of this stuff goes right over my head. You know I bought my 308 about a year ago and I have spent most of the time in my garage...would kinda like to drive the old girl. Maybe we should make a list of all the parts and prices for future DIY's. There is a lot of info on this subject several years ago but pictures are gone and prices changes. The pictures were posted again but I still can't open them. Well good luck.

 

I have the rear suspension of my 308 apart to replace the inner bushes. Since the rest of the brakes got done (master cylinder and front calipers) about 2 years ago, I'm also dropping some new seals and dust boots in the rear calipers while they are off.

The outer bushes all looked fine until the last one (always the way!). The inner bush was starting to pick up, and had to be tapped out. Thanks to the information in here (mainly from Martin), I now understand a heap more about what I am dealing with. I hadn't realised the outer bushes were teflon coated as well, and designed to run dry, so that was some valuable advice.

Now some specific questions! I'll go chasing the local bearing suppliers on Monday, and will look at replacing all the cylindrical sleeves, and the scored inner bush (the rest all look perfect). I have pressed one of the sleeves out, and for posterity, these are 23 OD, 20 ID and 25 long. Permaglide list these as a PAP 2025 P10, but who knows if Permaglide products are available here in NZ. Are these a generic item, and known by any other names? If I can't find these locally, can anyone suggest any good suppliers for these?

The other part is the hardened inner bush. I have seen these referred to as "solid chromium" - is that what they are or just a hardened plated steel bush. These are a weird length - around 26.7. I'm guessing this is to cylindrically locate the thrust washer. Are these available as generic parts, or am I looking at Ferrari specific items for these? (I could shorten longer ones if I had to...not so easy, but doable)

Thanks for any help! - BTW Martin, for many years I was living not far from you, in Zurich, which was where I picked up the 308. Its been a while now.

Andrew

 

Found a bit more - it looks like the generic part for the outer bushes is MB2025DU.

 

Look in the 308 Xref section. I posted common part numbers there.