Simply put, it turns out they've been guests/hosts at each others places. Moderators are not psychics. Well, I am, but that's beside the point. One gentleman whom I don't wish to put on the spot any more than this particular post (and I just as soon wouldn't, but for this set of circumstances, and I'll call him "rare user" so as to not embarrass him further) has rarely posted in 18 months - until yesterday, only 2 posts had been made, both on 05-26-2004. Since yesterday, 6 posts. I wish to make it abundantly clear - ghost did not target Hubert - he was curious about the rare user making comments that seemed to have a bit of, well, local flavor for a Hawaiian. 1st post: 05-26-2004 14 minutes after Hubert's on same thread, sharing same opinion. No big whoop. 2nd post: 05-26-2004 same thread, 8 minutes later. Hubert didn't reply. No big whoop. Except in retrospect if one flash-forwards over 1 1/2 years later. 3rd post: 02-02-2006 - bristling at a comment by an f-chatter (forget the fact it's a moderator) doesn't normally raise an eyebrow, but from someone who only has 3 posts? I'd check it. Who is this guy, and why is he dissin' an f-chatter? The rare-with-a-local-flavor-but-listed-elsewhere-user's IP was checked, and it matched Hubert's. ghost only posted results of IP search on the rare user, as he did not check Hubert's IP, because he wasn't hunting for Hubert. ghost asked for Mark to verify this and see if this was a coincidence to have IP's match, and sought advice on what to do if it was not a coincidence. Fangs were not bared. If it had matched my IP, they'd have gone about their business the same way, with the same results. 4th post: 02-02-2006 - 14 minutes later, an opinion by someone in his element... which in turn was followed by Hubert twice posting 19 minutes after the other user's 4th post. Mark complied with ghost's request, and in the process and of his own volition (as he was not asked to check Hubert's IP), Hubert's IP was checked, and it matched the rare user's as shown in the pic I presented. Incidentally, it was the same one Mark posted in the Mod thread. Not ghost. Mark. They went by the book. 4 minutes after Hubert's posts he and the rare user were both temporarily banned. Again, if it had matched my IP, they'd have gone about their business the same way, with the same results. Immediately after it became knowledge that IPs are shared only because they've logged into each other's computers, both were unbanned. It was an honest mistake.
I think moderating any section of this board is a tough task. If things on the board go haywire, people ***** that the moderators aren't doing their job; if the moderator is heavy-handed, people ***** that he's a Nazi. The other part of the equation, which seems to go to the 'bias' issue, is the fact that moderators are typically not just moderators- they are also participants. And, the line should not be blurred. If Vik has a pro-Lambo bias (I'm not sure he does but let's assume it for argument's sake), he can rant and rave all he wants, as a participant, about his favorite marque. Unless he is exercising his moderator's powers in a way that is somehow biased against Ferrari owners, because of his personal marque preferences, I don't see how that 'bias' has anything to do with his role as a mod. As to improvident accusations against a poster, I didn't take the time to unravel the one thread, involving Hubie. Is that the same Hubie that was here, and part of the NY 'gangsta' crowd who left as part of the en masse exodus in protest of WoodEar's banning? I certainly own my share of provocation at that time, since I found this section totally unwelcoming, and dominated by a small clique of guys who talked in 'werd' code only. Turns out, alot of it, as fairly as I can remember, was about an attitude that said (God forgive me), Hey this place sucks ever since Brad split and formed his own site. To which I responded- guys: all due respect, if that site is where it's at, go for it. But don't come here and mock people or heckle, just for fun. And, with the added pressure of Rob's involvement, we got Vik, who- as moderator- essentially alienated the remaining 'EC' guys who were trolling here. I for one appreciated that- my own, admitted bias. And, so it goes. But, if the 'glory days' of this section mean a return to the home-boy jive, and hostility, leave me out. I can play elsewhere.
For everyone who is weighing in on this issue please: 1) Keep in mind that the discussion is about more than just this most recent banning but a) the general direction that NYTS has gone in, and b) whether that is reflective of the moderating and kind of posting/participation that has taken place. Are the posts more or less about Ferraris (i.e. the purpose of this forum, www.ferrarichat.com)? Are there more or fewer people drawn to the section? Has the general quality gone up or down? What is the feeling of the forum - more open and welcoming? Less? These are difficult and important question and should be considered, along with others. 2) Keep the discussion civil. This is not an attack on anyone. This is NOT personal. As we all know, a job that was right 1 year ago (or 5 years ago, or 10) for someone may not be right for him or her anymore, as times and requirements change. Those requirement may shift back again at some point in the future. Things change and that's why evaluations are important. It may be determined that nothing at all needs to be changed, but going through the process is still a fruitful exercise.
Happy to respond to this post. But first, lets look at my numerous mod actions: 1. I permanently banned W00dEar. 2. I temporarily banned BklynBenz for 2-days. 3. I temporarily banned Hubert888 for an honest mistake that was made not only by me, but one of the more technically-inclined mods. As you know this was reversed as soon as the error came to light. Other than the above, and occassionally moving threads to the appropriate sections, please let me know what other mod actions or "manners undue" you take issue with. Second, you accuse me of "mistreating" people when their opinions do not agree with mine. I'm not even sure that that means? Healthy debate rages - and should rage - in any forum. I challenge people on certain points, just like I expect to be challenged on mine. However, I do try to do it politely as much as possible. Your accusation of mistreating people is a strong one, so it would be helpful to get specific examples. Three, your comments on "anti-Ferrari" sentiments are off-mark. Yes, I have publicly stated that I think Ferrari has lost the way in the styling department. So have many others, including both current and former owners. Auraraptor, Dr. Tommy Cosgrove, Huskerbill and other well-respected members have all been guilty of making the same observation. That is not to say that we don't care for the marque. Despite the incredible amount of fun I am having with the Gallardo, I still bleed Rossa Corsa. I can assure you I am certainly not anti-Ferrari, but that doesn't mean I can't come out and voice my support for Lambos in general, or Gallardo's in particular. Four, as I look at the indviduals that I have come out against me on this thread, I see most of them - yourself included bobafett - are members of InsideTheEC. You say you are providing an unbiased perspective, but I wish I could be more convinced. InsideTheEC's disapointment with me becoming a mod is well known, as is your desire to take every opportunity to try to remove me as one ever since. From my perspective, then, it seems like an ITEC gang-up. Which I have no problem with. But then lets be forthright about it. All that being said, nobody is perfect, and I certainly don't claim to be. I am happy to take constructive comments, and will certainly try to adapt my moderating style as warranted. From my perspective, NYTS has become a lot more accepting of different opinions, a lot more welcoming of new members, and generally a lot "happier." If you've got specific suggestions, I'm all ears. I definitely want to be fair, but please don't expect me to show "unwavering love" to ITEC members. They certainly show none to me as is evidenced by this - and many other - threads. I have no problem being civil to them, just as I expect them to be with me. I appreciate the support of all those who have chimed in FOR me. You guys have proved your friendship many times over, and I am always there for you.
Mark, fully understand where you are coming from. However the issue here is not about Hubert888's wrongful ban. It's about the bigger picture, it's about the transformation of this forum in the past year, how it turned from the most active/interesting sub-forum to a place where 1/3 of posts are OT non-sense, 1/3 of are about Gallardo and 1/3 of are to put down Ferrari's. The poll numper already speaks for itself. A well respected moderator should have overwhelming majority on his side, ghost barely has 32% as of now. And it's more than just what the number indicates: When veteran members do not even want to participate here any more, When someone with "honorary" as his forum title agrees ghost should be gone, it really tells you something, no?
Not taking any sides, but the following are important questions to be answered: 1) Would Vik have been better advised to write a PM asking what the deal was to a 5-year rossa subscribed member, asking whether he was violating the rules and/or asking him to stop? 2) Would Vik have been so quick with his trigger finger if it had been someone else involved? 3) If the answer is no, is that indicative of a level of non-neutrality? 4) Is that, in turn, indicative of a larger issue: namely, is the moderator dominating a seciton in such a way as to make the the Section the way he wants it to be, thereby alienating (purposely or otherwise) other users? 5) If yes, is that a bad thing?
Josh, I remember you well, including how we met at PChop's Wax On / Wax Off session. You provided lots of helpful advice on car care to all of us then. As you recall, I also kept an eye out for you a while after for 348's because I know you were keen to get into one. Sorry to see you have such a strong reaction to me. Feel free to provide specific, constructive feedback - I'd love to hear.
JOINING IN DEC, 05 WITH LESS THAN 25 POSTS, YOUR EXPERIENCE HERE LACKS..... VIK AND DAN ARE GREAT GUYS AS I KNOW THEM FOR YEARS....ESP DAN GET SOME EXPERIENCE HERE ON FCHAT, BEFORE YOU START POINTING FINGERS HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND!! BRUCE
Happy to answer them: 1. There are always different ways to deal with a particular situation. As has been mentioned numerous times, I asked a technically-minded mod to substantiate the results, and we came to the same erroneous conclusions. We took a course of action on that basis. Lesson learned for all of us, and we will be more careful next time. 2. Yes, as wax states, if it had matched with another user, we would have done the same. 3 - 5 don't need answering in light of what I noted in 2.
It has absolutely nothing to do with friendship or being a moderator. I am here to state what I witnessed firsthand, without bias. And to make a disclaimer short and the point - I'm not here to protect anyone. The truth shall set you and you and you and you and you... free. If someone has suggestions, make them. A cliquish "throw the baby out with the bathwater" doesn't cut it, but a critique, even from a Hatfield vs. McCoys clique, does. It's a 2 way street, so, keep it civil - in fact - now's as good a time as ever to call a truce and negotiate.
Vik, please don't make this an Us vs. Them. This is not about people who like you or don't, who are your friends or who aren't. I have some best friends who I don't think are right for certain jobs and would tell it to their face. I have best friends who are incredibly disorganized and would therefore not be ideal in certain leadership positions (depite their absolute brilliance in other areas). I have best friends who are awesome at being in charge but would fail miserably at the grunt work. Etc. Etc. Not every job is right for every person and that is no indication of their quality as people or what others think of them as people.
You have an amazing memory, I am impressed. Thank you for keeping an eye out for 348s, I continue to look at ebay and other places at 348's for sale. The reality though, is that while I can afford one, there is just not room in my life for one right now. :-( Now, re: the current debate; I want you to know that I have nothing against you personally, as we have never really interacted. My problem is unspecific, based more on a "feeling" if you will. The debates that seem to rage based solely on a moderators actions seem to persist in the NYTS section, and I think there is something wrong with that. In my opinion, the mods should be almost invisible, showing themselves and their "muscle" only inthe most extreme cases. The bottom line is that the majority of the Ferrari community in the NYTS area are NOT participating in F-chat activities solely because of your modorating style. To me, this would indicate that maybe your style is not condusive to moderating. That is all, no more no less. Again, I have no personal problem with you, I just wish the NYTS area could once again be the strongest on F-chat, like it used to be, and that is just not going to happen when so many have a bug up their butt about you being the Mod.
I didn't intend it to be "us versus them" (although I must admit I find that comment somewhat ironic with respect to the number of ITEC members that come in with guns a-blazing). I just wanted to say "thank you" to some of the people who felt I have been been fair in my mod actions, and posted / voted as such, as it feels nice to be appreciated. -
What if the vote/poll were re-cast, to exclude EC members, since there is obviously alot of hostility toward Vik from that crowd? Would the percentages change? Why?
Why exclude EC members? Their votes are not as important? Why not exclude Lambo owners? Same mentality...
I hear you, but I think it is a little unfair to say the "majority" of users are not posting. I can think of only a handful, and that too for very obvious reasons: they are closely aligned with ITEC. I don't think an adjustment of style would solve the problem - they are just unhappy I am a moderator, and won't post as a form of protest or to show their loyalties to ITEC. To take their place, we have had a number of new users, which has been great. Other than the immediate aftermath of ITEC bannings, and what has happened in the last couple of days, what debates on moderation have "raged"? I'd like to reemphasis that since I have been moderator, I believe only three moderator actions have been taken by me. I, too, wish that FChat could go back to it's former glory, but it's a long way away from there, and so we just have to deal. And deal we do. -
wax, can u please blur out some of the numbers on my ip address and mooseclipper's ip address on that .jpg you posted. thank you.
I have never kept up with the EC thing but Bradley was kind enough to send me a link to the thread where he left FChat. There are obviously a lot of bad feelings between the Inside the EC members and Vik and I'm not sure if there is really anything that can/should be done about it at this point other than just ask everyone to try and get along. I personally have no issue with the EC community but it seems to have a flavor that sometimes clashes with things here. Without a doubt it's a good thing that there is another forum where you can fully express things in the full spirit of EC but I would hope that both sides could get past the bad feelings so that FChat is open for everybody. As for the poll.... I think it's a little bit biased, and I would prefer to make a new one before using to to make any kind of judgement. Too late for him to do it.... Sam or Vik will have to remove it.
See, I don't think this has anything to do with EC vs. Ferrarichat. I think that's where a lot of the confusion lies, on both sides of the debate. As an aside: I would not be a good moderator, and I have no problem admitting that. In this particular case, it is my opinion that a moderator should not be like a despot. He should not, under the color of law, try to control the tenor of a conversation to suit his personal agenda and/or point of view. To offer an example, see the recent "ha! - F430 prices are dropping" thread (not to be confused with the "at least Superamericas aren't $400,000 anymore" thread). Disagreeing with the implication, I responded by posting dropping Lambo prices - not an unreasonable response, I don't think, under the circumstances. The discussion at this point was, at the very most, a slightly charged disagreement. An appropriate action for a moderator, at this point, would not be to send threatening PMs to the person with whom he disagrees (and I quote): "I'd ask that you show a little more balance in your posts." This is quite simply improper conduct. To echo my statement above, it is inappropriate for a moderator-as-poster to try to control the tenor of a conversation to suit his own position. A moderator's role is not to use the power of his station against people who disagree with his point of view, however sarcastically. That is the point of this discussion, and it has nothing to do with EC or Ferrarichat.
Ed.P: I'm not sure if you are trying to be provocative, or you missed the point. The EC members have a hard-on for Vik. It is that simple. And while they don't participate here with any frequency these days (which with all due respect, I find pleasant because this board is a far less hostile place), somehow, the issue of Vik and the EC is now back, in the form of this poll. Which is why I suggested filtering out an obvious bias, to see if those who are here, but not part of a group with obvious hostility toward Vik, really have an issue with his moderating technique. Where do you fit in? And, if your sympathies lie with the EC, and you already have a welcoming place to express your views elsewhere, why is Vik's moderation of this section even an issue for you?
Bruce, I think there is only true or false to what I have said. If it's deemed to be false, let me know where I was wrong. if it's deemed to true, then why discredit my valid point for my registration date and post count? Have a great weekend to you too.
