Researching Vintage Vehicle History - HOW?

TLKIZER660 · Feb 6, 2006

Has anyone ever seen a primer on researching the history of a vintage vehicle? I've had better luck researching the genealogy of my wife's family back to 1635. My Queen (1969 SN 12293) was originally sold in Italy, passed its first 15 years there and was then bought by an Italian individual, worked on by an Autocarrozzerie in Ferrara, exported to the US to the new owner, who had been transferred, and then sold to me a year later in 1985. History since then is no problem, but prior to it being imported to the US, its history is blank. I've written to the Autocarrozzerie in English and French (My languages) and in Italian (using a web translater). They are still in business but owned I think by a younger member of the same family. I've just sent the letter off and will probably not hear back soon if at all. I've even written to the previous owner (I think). I found someone with the same name working in China as an executive for an Italian Company. i've not received an answer yet.

I've contacted the factory and received the Heritage Certificate and the build sheets (useless). I asked them last week if they could at least tell me which dealer originally sold it but they haven't answered yet. I would like to contact the dealer for one of their stickers to use in my restoration. I know that the factory has information other than what is on the build sheets because they told me the original color names and numbers of the leather and the paint.

I don't want to violate anyone's privacy but I would like to know what vehicle history information can be iobtained legally in Italy and how I might do it.

I know that for US cars, FML's Gerald Roush knows all, but my car never saw the US until a year before I bought it.
During my ongoing restoration, I've derived a lot of what it experienced in the past by studying the layers of paint and primer and filler in various places, but I would like to develop its "personality" by having a detailed history.

If anyone can offer any advice, I would greatly appreciate it. If not, at least I've vented some of my frustration. Mayby I'll feel better when I've posted this.

Tom Kizer

MJarrettR · Feb 6, 2006

Marcel Massini is very good at obtaining Italian ACI PRA documents.

[email protected]

-Jarrett

Marcel Massini · Feb 7, 2006

Tom
Your car was delivered new to the official dealer in Vigevano, Italy.
Do you know any of the Italian license plates that were used on your car?? I don't need a photo, just the city and the numbers, like Milan "MI 123456" or similar. Please advise. You can find it on old pix or old documents, perhaps.
The Italian license plate is the key to obtain the ACI PRA documents.
Regards
Marcel Massini

Kram · Feb 7, 2006

Welcome to FerrariChat!

Im sorry I cant help you, but your post has taught me something:

TLKIZER660 said:

........I know that for US cars, FML's Gerald Roush knows all..........Tom Kizer
Click to expand...

Is this true of every car sold in the U.S. before, say, 1961? If so what does FML stand for and how would I contact this gentleman? I have a car with a spot of missing history - 1961 to 1979, and it too has interesting witness marks in various places.

dretceterini · Feb 7, 2006

It generally goes faster if you try and work both forward from the original documents AND backward, from current owner to first owner. Sometimes this can be VERY difficult!

Marcel Massini · Feb 7, 2006

Kram said:

Welcome to FerrariChat!

I’m sorry I can’t help you, but your post has taught me something:

Is this true of every car sold in the U.S. before, say, 1961? If so what does FML stand for and how would I contact this gentleman? I have a car with a spot of missing history - 1961 to 1979, and it too has interesting witness marks in various places.
Click to expand...

FML = Ferrari Market Letter, now in its 31st year (Congratulations Gerald and Carol!). Publisher is Gerald L. Roush in Stone Mountain/GA.
Try: www.ferrarimarketletter.com

Which car do you have? Perhaps I can help you. Contact me privately at: [email protected] and indicate the serial number, please.
Marcel Massini

330gt · Feb 7, 2006

Marcel Massini said:

Tom
...Do you know any of the Italian license plates that were used on your car?? I don't need a photo, just the city and the numbers, like Milan "MI 123456" or similar. Please advise. You can find it on old pix or old documents, perhaps.
...Regards
Marcel Massini
Click to expand...

I was successful in asking the Ferrari Owner's Site if the history department had a record of the Italian registration number. In my case, they did since the car had been serviced at the factory. Just log into their website and send them an email.

Then let Marcel do his wonders. I was able to find the history of my car from new until it was shipped to the US.

Regards, Kerry

donv · Feb 7, 2006

Gerald has information dating back to 1974. Basically, he can provide you with every ad for your car ever placed in Ferrari Market Letter, and any other reports or spottings he's recorded of your car.

In researching my car, 12327, I had service records dating back to 1977, but nothing before that. I corresponded with the 1977 owner via email, but he couldn't remember where he got the car, so I ran into a dead end.

Kram said:

Welcome to FerrariChat!

Im sorry I cant help you, but your post has taught me something:

Is this true of every car sold in the U.S. before, say, 1961? If so what does FML stand for and how would I contact this gentleman? I have a car with a spot of missing history - 1961 to 1979, and it too has interesting witness marks in various places.
Click to expand...

Kram · Feb 7, 2006

donv said:

Gerald has information dating back to 1974.......
Click to expand...

Thanks!

TLKIZER660 · Feb 7, 2006

Originally posted by Marcel Massini:
Tom
Your car was delivered new to the official dealer in Vigevano, Italy.
Do you know any of the Italian license plates that were used on your car?? I don't need a photo, just the city and the numbers, like Milan "MI 123456" or similar. Please advise. You can find it on old pix or old documents, perhaps.
The Italian license plate is the key to obtain the ACI PRA documents.
Regards
Marcel Massini
Click to expand...

I never ceased to be amazed by the knowledge and generosity of FerrariChat members. Marcel, you've really got my energy flowing, now that I can see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Thank you immensely. I hope this is not a lot of effort for you. I don't want to impose on you.
I found, on the Autocarrozzeria invoice dated 1984 (the earliest document that I have), the plate number that it had when it entered the shop. It was targa FE 228763. I suppose that means Ferrara since that's where the shop was.
You used the acronyms ACI and PRA. What do they stand for?
Below is a photo taken today. The 2000 grit sanding is finished and the rough polishing is almost complete. The fine polishing will take place tomorrow and the car is ready to come home to start reassembly.
Kerry, thanks for the Italian registration number advice. Marcel, if you need more than the plate number in 1984, let me know and I'll try to get the registration number.
Thanks again for your help - all of you.
Tom Kizer
Image Unavailable, Please Login

330gt · Feb 7, 2006

TLKIZER660 said:

I never ceased to be amazed by the knowledge and generosity of FerrariChat members. Marcel, you've really got my energy flowing, now that I can see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. ...
You used the acronyms ACI and PRA. What do they stand for?
...Tom Kizer
Click to expand...

For more information on the ACI PRA documentation, see
http://www.parrotbyte.com/kbc/ferrari/ACIPRA.htm

BTW, Marcel makes a living researching Ferrari information. So you won't be 'imposing' on him. There will be an appropriate fee based on the time and costs involved.

The FE part of your Italian registration stands for Ferrara. It's a city and province in Italy, east of Modena.
For more information on Italian license plates, see http://www.targheitaliane.it.

Bryanp · Feb 7, 2006

the paint is looking great, Tom - what is the name of the color?

Marcel got all of my euro ownership history for my car - all the way back to the first - Count Ossi.

TLKIZER660 · Feb 7, 2006

Kerry, I don't think I will ever explore all of your site. You must have a lot of it unlinked. Thanks for the ACI PRA link and the Italian license plate site. That's great stuff.

Thanks also for explaining how it is that Marcel knows so much about Ferrari history. Reading his posts, I often wondered where his expertise came from. I tend to be reluctant to ask for help because I don't want to impose on people. I usually stumble along blindly by myself. You probably noted in my initial post that I asked if people could advise me how to research it myself. I didn't know that Marcel is a "professional". That's great. Had I known, I would not have hesitated to contact him initially to ask him to do it for me. I have realized for some time that it will be almost impossible to do it myself but until now I thought I had no choice. Considering that the car will be almost perfect when finished, paying Marcel to complete the missing history for me will be a good investment.

Thanks Brian for the paint comment. It's the original build color, Grigio Ortello 2.443.813 also known as Ditzler/PPG Code 32780 Ortello Gray Poly. Of course the original was lacquer but I chose to do it in Basecoat/Topcoat using the formula PPG created by scanning their lacquer paint chip.

kare · Feb 7, 2006

TLKIZER660 said:

I have realized for some time that it will be almost impossible to do it myself but until now I thought I had no choice.
Click to expand...

Last time I needed Italian registeration documents it took 15 minutes of my time to compile an email and cost me 17 euros and a few sents. This was for a complete set of Milanese registeration papers from early 1970's.

Marcel Massini · Feb 8, 2006

Here's a list of the Italian provinces for the various license plates.
EE = Escursionisti Esteri = Tourist/Customs plates
Prova = Dealer/Test plates

Marcel Massini
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oldfart3 · Feb 8, 2006

I'm glad somebody has been able to get factory documentation on their vintage car. I've been totally frustrated the several times I've tried to get ANYTHING on my Lusso # 4437.

TLKIZER660 · Feb 8, 2006

Originally posted by kare:
Last time I needed Italian registeration documents it took 15 minutes of my time to compile an email and cost me 17 euros and a few sents. This was for a complete set of Milanese registeration papers from early 1970's.
Click to expand...

.
I understand that, given the knowledge, it's probably very easy to do. My problem is that I know nothing of how things work in Italy. I've lived and worked in the U.S, England, and Germany. I'm now retired in Québec, Canada. In addition, I've visited twenty or more other countries. I speak, read and write English and French. In spite of all that, when I think of trying to deal with government offices, at whatever level, in a language I don't understand and in a country where I don't know how things work, I choke bigtime.

I not only don't know how to do things, I don't even know what can be done nor how to ask for it. I still think I'm better to pay an expert to do it for me, in the absence of a book that tells me how to do it myself. I'll save the money in another way. I currently do everything on my Queen except bodywork and body paint.

Maybe eventually I'll accumulate a critical mass of knowledge by participating in this excellent forum, but right now, I'm still learning how to learn. I appreciate all the help I'm getting.
Tom Kizer

Ed_Long · Feb 9, 2006

330gt said:

I was successful in asking the Ferrari Owner's Site if the history department had a record of the Italian registration number. In my case, they did since the car had been serviced at the factory. Just log into their website and send them an email.

Then let Marcel do his wonders. I was able to find the history of my car from new until it was shipped to the US.

Regards, Kerry
Click to expand...

Kerry:
What is this Ferrari Owner's Site and how is it accessed? On-line? Does the Ferrari factory have a web site? In the dark......as usual,
Ed

TLKIZER660 · Feb 9, 2006

Ed,
Since Kerry may not be available to answer your question, here's some info.
It's http://www.owners.ferrari.com and if you own a Ferrari, you can get a Heritage Certificate attesting to the validity of the engine, trans, diff, and chassis on your car as being as-built and authentic.

They used to provide copies of build sheets but no more due to confidentiality.

There's lots of other stuff on the site. Try it!
Tom Kizer

Ed_Long · Feb 10, 2006

TLKIZER660 said:

Ed,
Since Kerry may not be available to answer your question, here's some info.
It's http://www.owners.ferrari.com and if you own a Ferrari, you can get a Heritage Certificate attesting to the validity of the engine, trans, diff, and chassis on your car as being as-built and authentic.

They used to provide copies of build sheets but no more due to confidentiality.

There's lots of other stuff on the site. Try it!
Tom Kizer
Click to expand...

Thanks very much Tom for this info. I found that site and got the home page, but could not find anyway to register or open anything else. I shall try again. Is it operated by the factory? BTW the factory sent me the original, six-page build sheets for both of my 250s back in the early 1980s for $20 each. Plus a very cordial letter.
Ed Long

TLKIZER660 · Feb 10, 2006

Ed,
On the Ferrari Owners site, just above the User Name box, there is a small orange button labeled "Register Now".
Tom Kizer

330gt · Feb 11, 2006

Ed_Long said:

Thanks very much Tom for this info. I found that site and got the home page, but could not find anyway to register or open anything else. I shall try again. Is it operated by the factory? BTW the factory sent me the original, six-page build sheets for both of my 250s back in the early 1980s for $20 each. Plus a very cordial letter.
Ed Long
Click to expand...

There's a "Register Now" button just above where you would enter your username if you had one. Click on it and you'll be taken through the process to get a username.

If the site comes up in Italian, click on the British flag to go to the English version.

It is an official Ferrari website done by the factory. The corporate website is www.ferrariworld.com. There you can look at current models, look up dealerships, etc.

Build sheets used to be available from the factory for free or a nominal charge. Then in the late 80s when the Ferrari prices went through the roof, Ferrari found that some people were using the build sheets to make replicas and passing them off as the real car. End of build sheets from the factory. A few years ago a friend tried to get his through Ferrari North America. He was told that they were available but at a cost of $1000. He declined the offer. Then in 2002, Ferrari started this owner's website. They offered the build sheet for your car provided you could prove (through digital photos of serial numbers) that it still had the original chassis, engine, transmission and differential. I guess that they thought that you must own the car since getting all of these pictures usually meant some disassembly and someone might notice that you were messing with their car. A couple of years ago Ferrari added the Classique Certification program where there is a 500 Euro fee and inspection by a factory authorized person to 'authenticate' the car. This certification is required to participate with your Ferrari in factory sponsored events. Then about 6 months ago, they dropped the build sheet availability through the owner's site telling people to use the Classique program instead.

So we're back to no build sheets from the factory until they change their minds again.

Regards, Kerry

Ed_Long · Feb 11, 2006

TLKIZER660 said:

Ed,
On the Ferrari Owners site, just above the User Name box, there is a small orange button labeled "Register Now".
Tom Kizer
Click to expand...

Tom & Kerry:
Thanks for the clarification. I tried again last night and my ISP, Earthlink, about had a heart attack. Earthlink opened the home page but would not stay with it long enough for me to see a register now button, then gave me an error message that I think means that the site is corrupted, then closed out of it......all in the span of about 5 seconds. Quite strange. I did see the user name box in that brief span, but that was about all I could see. Maybe the factory site will provide a link to it. Shall try again.
Thanks again,
Ed

330gt · Feb 11, 2006

Ed_Long said:

Tom & Kerry:
Thanks for the clarification. I tried again last night and my ISP, Earthlink, about had a heart attack. Earthlink opened the home page but would not stay with it long enough for me to see a register now button, then gave me an error message that I think means that the site is corrupted, then closed out of it......all in the span of about 5 seconds. Quite strange. I did see the user name box in that brief span, but that was about all I could see. Maybe the factory site will provide a link to it. Shall try again.
Thanks again,
Ed
Click to expand...

Here's the link that goes directly into the registration page:
https://www.owners.ferrari.com/cgi-bin/Feros/os/jsp/01_4_login_00.jsp?language=en

If that doesn't work, it's time to start talking to Earthlink customer support and get some answers.

Regards, Kerry

kare · Feb 12, 2006

Ed_Long said:

Thanks for the clarification. I tried again last night and my ISP, Earthlink, about had a heart attack. Earthlink opened the home page but would not stay with it long enough for me to see a register now button, then gave me an error message that I think means that the site is corrupted, then closed out of it......all in the span of about 5 seconds. Quite strange. I did see the user name box in that brief span, but that was about all I could see. Maybe the factory site will provide a link to it. Shall try again.
Click to expand...

The Ferrari site is a web design nightmare;if you have access to several browsers try them all.

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