timing belt change mileage interval -- Here we go again!

Hi guys,

I know this has been discussed before, but I haven't found anything in the archives that really answers my question, so I'd appreciate your brief input.

I have found the thread below, which never ends. I'll be honest and say I'm a little too lazy to read past page 4, so help me out here if you can.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64504

Here's my situation. In March 2004, I had the major (engine-out) service performed on my 348 at 10,000 miles.

Now, the car has about 21,000 miles. What are your opinions as to how many miles I can put on the car before it's time to say that the belts need to be changed due to mileage (and not time) concerns?

If I cross 25,000 miles this year, is it time? How about 30,000?

I hope this doesn't become another huge debate. So let's focus our answers...

I just want to know what Ferrari officially says about what I should do, and what the general FChat opinion is as to what I should do. I've heard all kinds of different answers to both questions...

 

If you want to know what Ferrari says, look in your manuals. For my Testarossa, the change of the timing belts is listed at 52,500 miles.

Common wisdom I was initially told is that at 30,000 miles it should be done.

Current advice, which I am now in the process of taking, is that if you make it to 5-7 years, and you haven't changed your belts because you haven't gone 30,000 miles, you should do so since heat cycles and time degrade rubber.

Most recently, a question has arisen as to how old the belts are that are being installed. I forgot to ask my mechanic that question, but I assume they last longer on the wall than in the car.

So, it seems that the shorter of 5-7 years or 30,000 miles is the most common answer I got.

If you want DEFINITIVE information, I am advised that Brian Crall, Rfledriver on this forum is a mechanic who both owns and understands Ferrari, although in my case it is the Testarossa.

 

I don't think that you would need a belt service in 2 years even if your mileage hits 30k. Ferrari recommends 5 years or 30,000 miles so I would think your good for another 3 years or 20,000.

 

This will be another never ending thread on belts.....see the thread on the high mile TR on ebay, Tom has a customer that has gone 150,000kms on his TR belts, Coachi went 22 years on his BB belts and they looked like new when they were just changed. I know another guy in town that went 15+ years on his BBi belts. You guys are worried about 30K and 5 years? If you drive the car regularly rather than let it sit unstarted for 10 years then I would go at least 7 years, maybe more and not be concerned about the distance.

 

I'm starting to think maybe we need an added forum called "when should I change my belts?".

 

You just got the Ferrari answer. Sorry, but there is no single authoratative person on Fchat who can give you 'general FChat opinion'. FChat is an anarchy, so you are bout to get the in the form of 'all kinds of different answers'. You might as well have waded thru the previous threads as it's all been said a couple of times/year since Fchat started.
.

 

Thanks for your input so far guys.

I posed the questions of this thread because I haven't been able to reach an opinion on this matter, as I see a significant conflict between what Ferrari says now, what Ferrari said back in 1989, and the conventional wisdom of experienced F-Chatters.

I guess this thread is redundant, then. But many people probably don't know what Ferrari says in the 348 Workshop Manual.

On page B57 of the 348 Workshop Manual, it says:
"Replace the belts after 35,000-45,000 km. Take the engine out of the car in order to perform this operation." As we know, 35,000-45,000 km equals 21,747-27,961 miles.

HOWEVER, on page N6 of the 348 Wokshop Manual, the maintenance schedule is given. Here's what it says:

"Change alternator and air conditioning compressor belts." Then it says "every 24 months." It also indicates that this should be done at 40,000 km.

It says the same thing for the timing belt. "Change the timing belt," it says. Then it says "every 24 months" or 40,000 km.

Certainly it would be silly to replace the belts every two years. But the book does say about every 21,xxx-28,xxx miles.

I know this subject has been beaten to death, but if everyone could just give a brief answer like "change it at 35,000 miles" or "don't change it until it's been 6 years regardless of mileage" then I could see for myself what the general opinion is and therefore arrive at some sort of conclusion.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

It sounds like you should be good to 30,000 miles. You are averaging a bit less than 500 miles per month.

However there is something very important that the 348 brotherhood discovered in another belt discussion. You can read about it in this thread, and there are some picture you must see: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89204 In short you need to check the guides that run just above the belt. You should remove the inspection caps to make sure they are not rubbing into the top of the belt. We found out that some people had the guides tightend down on the belt and that was causing excesive wear on the belt and the guides. So have a look under the inspection caps on the belt cover. For me I feel this is a hidden problem that most have no idea about and that leads to premature belt failure.

Now if your belt and guides are fine, based on the amount of miles you drive, I would change the belt at the 30k mile mark.

In a nut shell the more you drive the longer you can go between belt changes, both in miles and time. The less you drive the shorter you can go between belt changes, both in miles and time.

 

Unless there is something unique to the 348 that I don't know, I would drive it to 40k miles (30k after the last belt change) or 2009 (5 years), whichever comes first.

Anyway, that's what I would do in a BB or a 328.

 

Ernie,

That looks like a very interesting thread. I am printing it out! Thanks.

 

I guess another thing to consider that might change things is the single belt setup unique to the 348 (from this era), why did they go back to 2 belts in the 355?

 

YES!!

the 348 uses a single belt which also drives the water pump, and has one belt tensioner. I would say not to go anymore then 5 years on a 348 belt regardless of miles.

 

Ernie, I'm not a mechanic or engineer, but I'm not the village idiot either (though some would debate this). It seems to me the answer is obvious. If the manual for the car gives mileage at which to change it that's the answer. You're probably ok to go longer, especially if car has been used regularily, kept inside, and no fluids have leaked on the tbelts. BUT why chance it? follow the book.

It is interesting to note that the service manual for the 308gt4 only has a mileage change interval...nary a mention of the effluxation of time. It also directs thorough visual inspection at about the half way mileage point. Err on the side of caution. Good luck.

 

On my 308QV, I'm currently having the 60K service done, including belts. I have almost 11 years and almost 35K miles on them with no problems.

 

Do you know Ernie? Why are you directing your answer at him?

Ernie and other technical experts have given a lot of advice to this board, and among that advice is the fact that Ferrari sometimes, both knowingly and unkowingly, publishes unnecessary recommendations or downright false information.

 

Interval for this belt is 3 Year/30,000 mile

the 348 belt is one continuous belt that drives both banks and the water pump. this in itself is the main reason for the 3 year interval. the twin belt systems can go 5 year 30,000 miles but the ferrari recomendation is 3 year/30,000 mile for all belt applications.

FYI:
FERRARI NORTH AMERICA, INC.
TECHNICAL SERVICE DEPARTMENT
TECHNICAL INFORMATION
Area Model Bulletin n° Date Pages
1 All 8 Cylinder models 1215 May 2004 1
SUBJECT: Timing belt for 8-cylinder engines
For your information, all 8-cylinder Ferrari models, independent of the Model Year, must
have the timing belts replaced every 30,000 miles or every 3 years, whichever comes
first.
For information on Timing Belts for 12-cylinder engines, refer to Technical Information
Bulletin number 1003 dated October 2002.


best regards, Jim

 

Why does the '94 348 owners manual state belt change at 52,500 miles? There's no mention of time.

I had a Porsche and I think it could go 100,000 miles without changing belts. I've had two Honda's with over 100,000 miles with no belt change or failure.

Has Ferrari installed inferior belts? Is there designed flawed? If so why did they not correct it over the years/models?

Or are they selling sevice????

My 308 went 13 years and only about 9,000 miles. When I had the belts changed they looked brand new.

I am not a mechanic and I don't know the answer, but I bet 99% of the time belts are changed prematurely out of fear.

 

Dr348,

What Porsche did you drive 100000 miles without belt change? The 911 doesn't have timing belts but instead chains with tensioners (hence they don't break but do fail from bad tensioner problems until 1984 when that was solved by updating the system to hydraulic tensioners). The other models 944 and 928 need new timing belts after 30K miles. Hondas have superior belts since they are tested for longevity before being used. Ferrari (italian mentality) doesn't care about reliability and longevity or endurance racing, They are only interested in the immediate gratification of sprints (quickies) with all the seductive noise and passion of a flaming romance that isn't like a stable satisfying marriage (the kind the Germans offer).

You're absolutely right in most belts were changed out of fear of facing a blown engine versus common sense preventative maintenance.

 

IIRC, in previous discussions we were guessing that for many US models this was more related to US emissions law requiring that things last (or are "spec'd" to last ) at least 50K miles or the repair is the responsibility of the vehicle manufacturer.

One of my favorite "specs" is shown in the 308GT4 WSM where they indicate you should clean the clutch dust out of the bell housing every 10,000 Kilometers (or something like that) -- ain't nobody doing that

 

This analogy can be used on everything that is changed due to 'preventative maintenance'.

Many years ago we learnt that it is cheaper and safer for everybody concerned if we replaced things before they failed ... some still struggle with that concept. BUT I bet you change your tyres before they wear so thin that they loose air and thus go flat on you?

I do believe that some States in the USA do not have vehicle safety checks/requirements ... is your response from one of those effectively stupid States [God I would hate to share the road with my family in those backward idiotic areas of the world].

You do what you like, but please think of other road users ... a timing belt failure will cause your car to suddenly and without warning slow (heck if you are an idiot driver it could cause the car to violently slow as the engine sh!ts itself and causes the rear wheels to lock) and cause a massive accident. Heck then as SUV after SUV plow in to the back of your lovely Ferrari, you will think, heck those belts were not that expensive really were they.

BTW: You should also replace your fuel lines, before they fail/leak; your suspension bushes before a wheel parts company with your car; your brake pads, fluid; engine oil (why bother, I've heard of many engines lasting years on the same oil); oil filter ... and it goes on.

I appologise if my tone is somewhat off in this post, but I'm just sick and tired of these 'I hate spending money on my Ferrari' threads. Personally if I found in the service manuals 2 different specifications for anything maintenance wise ... guess what, I'd do the earlier one, cause then I would know my car is safe and ready for a hammering . The only difference to many, is that I'd be doing the spanner work myself, 'cause I have found that is the only way of ensuring a quality job and it saves $$$'s. I can count on my left hand the people that I trust maintaining or working on my cars, and one of them is my father.

Pete

 

Jeez... I thought the original question was posted in the right spirit. It doesn't sound to me like Dave is trying to "cheap out" on maintaining his car. In fact quite the opposite. His concern (if I read the post right) is that we're a very conscientious group when it comes to maintaining some very demanding cars, and we get conflicting information.

FWIW, I think you're right that many or most Americans aren't diligent about maintaining their cars, but then again our average Jeep or Ford doesn't digest itself if you miss an $8000 service every 3 years. We imported that bit of ingenius engineering from Europe. And almost anyone who bothers to post on a board like this is obviously interested and willing when it comes to taking care of his car.

The issue here is that there's a mixture of dealer propaganda, incentive to bilk owners out of a lot of money, and several Ferrari guidelines for how often the belts are supposed to be done. It's a mess.

I think the vast majority of people posting in the Technical Q&A forum are in the top 1% of car owners in terms of giving a d@mn about everything being perfect.

 

Ferrari last comment on this was a service note:

Thus ...

Why don't they just believe Ferrari then? (generally I agree with you, except when it comes to these timing belts. It has become some sort of game in the Ferrari world to ignore Ferrari recommendations ... and yet I'm sure there are many other things that everybody follows to the book that are equally questionable).

I think personally that we have too many 'so called' experts that have been lucky and got longer mileage out of them and as all 'so called' experts will they have started this 'issue'. Ofcourse we also get the ocassional failures ... thus I think for those that have got hugh mileage out of their belts, they were lucky, and had nice oil tight, etc. engines. If we do the stats (as I have already suggested on the other 'belt thread' we will probably find out that Ferrari was pretty close to the money), heck maybe we should record the failure mileage too, to help this process.

Ferrari also probably got sick of doing warantee repairs, etc. (after all I imagine their is a high percentage of Ferrari owners that know the law and think they are clever at getting somebody else to pay for failures) and thus understandably er on the side of caution.

Pete
ps: I though, can see your point regarding this:

I appologise for my tone ... unfortunately we are dealing with Italians, hardly noted for their record keeping, etc.

Again I've seen the other side (not Ferraris), ie. shops view and customers coming back, etc. thus not so forgiving when owners take short cuts.

 

I also read somewhere that Ferrari in the 80's (I believe) changed their attitude to their cars somewhat, and decided to put more effort in to making them like most other cars, ie. they can be used more.

Why did they do this?

Well according to this story I read (insert magazine) it was because they had worked out that they were not making the possible money out of servicing their cars they could be, BECAUSE most Ferrari owners had the attitude that their car could not really be used that much, and thus running up small mileage.

Porsche on the other hand, has the image of reliable cars and many buy them as their only car ... and thus get them dealer serviced regularly and Porsche was cashing in.

Now I have no idea if this story is true or not, but since the 355 (in particular), maybe 348, Ferraris do appear to have improved quality and slowly the attitude appears to be changing (to me anyway). We now have a few members (on this site) that have new Ferraris and are racking up huge mileage .


And regarding dealerships ripping owners off ... er, ofcourse they are, when they sold you the car in the first place they probably made many % profit, and now they have their expensive facilities and technicians to pay for.

When you charge for your work, you add mark ups don't you? We are all in this capitalisim game for profits.

Pete

 

One of the issues that deal with belt life are how the car is used and driven. Our grandmothers in thier Buicks could drive 20 years on the same drive belts and never hear a squeal. But grandson Bill takes it out one night and beats the hell out of it and guess what, belts are shot. I read somewhere that the F-40, under race conditions needs higher grade belts than standard and they need replacement between races to guarantee they dont fry.

Yes, many Jap cars are able to go to great distances on timing belts, yet put those cars in the hands of hard drivers, and they wont make it. Ive seen Hondas and everything else break a belt, no one really has a leg up on anybody. We even have people here who for some rediculous reason have driven Ferrari's over 100K miles on belts, and skimmed by. I rode in a TR a guy had, and he drove it like a grampa and never allowed the motor to rev above 2500 rpm, it was so rediculous I wanted to just get out and walk. But driven like that his belts would last forever.

 

This would be correct to me.
BT