1989 Mondial t Dyno run! | Page 2 | FerrariChat

1989 Mondial t Dyno run!

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by buzzm2005, Jan 13, 2006.

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  1. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
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    Buzz
    The chipsss came back this AM. By chipsss I mean 2 SETS of 2 chips. I received a "custom" set AND a "slightly-more-aggressive-custom-timing" set. Since I am leery of detonation (it is a 10.4:1 motor after all), we decided to put in the "custom" set. I still have not gotten the car back but the tech at WWoC says it starts great, idles well, and has great pep. I'm rather relieved it just runs. WWoC will also run A/F tests (not dyno) to ensure my lean condition at low RPM has been rectified. Dyno next Friday, so we'll see.

    In parallel, the next project is the octane adjuster input on the Motronic 2.5. Here's the gist: Put the even more aggressive chips in the car. Wire one of the famous unused switches on the Mondial t dash to a voltage source that hits that pin. If I run 94 octane fuel, the switch is off. If I have to put in 93, turn on the switch to retard timing a bit. I have to dig into the Bosch manuals a bit on this but in theory it's doable.

    When it's all done, this will either be a very nicely performing Mondial t cab or a very expensive and time consuming way to learn about EFI. Let's hope it's the former.
     
  2. Michael B

    Michael B F1 Rookie
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    Apr 28, 2004
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    Hot dawg.

    I was just today wondering how things were going for you. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.
     
  3. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    This is a great story!
    If you can post the A/F info or graphs that would be great.
    Good luck!
     
  4. Beau365

    Beau365 Formula 3

    Feb 27, 2005
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    Sounds promising.
    Shame your not running 97 Octane like here in England.
    Keep us posted.
     
  5. Beau365

    Beau365 Formula 3

    Feb 27, 2005
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    PS. Forgot to mention that I've heard a straight ECU swap with a Vauxhall Cavalier ECU (!) produces an extra 30bhp on a 2.5 Motronic 348 engine - apparently. Will be looking into this more and revert back as and when.
     
  6. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
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    #31 buzzm2005, Feb 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Dyno'd the Mondial this afternoon with the PowerChipGroup chips on the same dyno as last month.

    The Good News:
    1. When looking at the raw data from the runs, we are seeing between a 9-12% increase in HP and torque from about 1600 rpm to 4200 rpm when comparing the best stock chip run to the best new chip run. This is quantitative data, not hunches. (But see Bad News below...)
    2. Cold start is easier. It's 35 degrees in NY/NJ and she started after <1.5 seconds (one one thousand, two one th.....start!) after sitting outside for 5 hours. This is coldest she has ever been. Idle was smooth with no sputtering or missing. I have Redline in the gearbox and a naturally less-notchy tranny so the entire cold start experience is almost....non-Ferrari-like.
    3. Seat-of-the-pants? Feels slightly better. Third gear pull is stronger.

    The Bad News:
    1. The raw data and the graphs don't jive. In particular, the raw data on some runs today vanished (N/A instead of real values) yet there is a JPG graph for the run up to 7000rpm. No clue what's going on there. I have to talk to the dyno shop.
    2. The stock chip run was done 62 deg F, humidity 52%. The new chip run was done at 51 deg F, humidity 21%. So, today's run had a much drier, somewhat denser air mass. I can't get a good grip on the SAE correction in the data emitted but I suspect that I'm not comparing true apples-to-apples.
    3. Still am leery of the A/F. The dyno shop concedes their sensor is weird when transitioning from idle to load, and it looks like although I'm richer in the low end, I'm still not hitting 14 until 5250 rpm AND -- get this -- I'm now actually leaner above 3750 rpm.

    Next steps: Installing the K&N filter and the even more aggressive chips and doing this again.
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  7. jjstecher

    jjstecher Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2002
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    Your chat is nearly similar to what I had from my car after I dyno'd it well over 4 years ago. Its a nice improvement at the highend it looks like from your graph. Would be interesting to find out the exact numbers instead of the n/a segments.

    Your running richer down low is just what happened to me as well. :)
     
  8. chrisx666

    chrisx666 Formula Junior

    Dec 6, 2004
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    He is probably actually running about 98RON. The octane measuring scale is different in the USA, I can't remember the exact ratio but the MON (mean R+M/2) rating number is lower for the same fuel. 94MON(US) = ~98RON(EU).
     
  9. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
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    #34 buzzm2005, Feb 11, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Bad news indeed.

    First, I was comparing corrected and uncorrected power info. I "uncorrected" the stock chip run and then applied a consistently calculated correction factor to ALL runs. I used a great Javascript page at http://www.csgnetwork.com/relhumhpcalc.html to get a correction factor precise to 3 digits beyond the decimal point and it includes elevation in addition to temp, pressure, and humidity -- and it takes English units as inputs, which is great when that's what the DynoJet dyno is putting on the data export!

    Second, the reference run from the first set of pulls in Jan had the highest HP and torque but is actually NOT the strongest of the pulls between 1500 and 3000 rpm.

    We are now seeing only a 2-4% increase in torque from 1500 rpm on up. There is still some possibility for error if the reported DynoJet SAE correction factor is truncated (i.e. .97 reported but .97942 used internally for calcs).

    Attached is an Excel spreadsheet with all the gory details.
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  10. jjstecher

    jjstecher Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2002
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    I cant believe the loss in power you have low down. I did not see that with my dyno runs on the chip. I was only slightly lower at 2k or under then ramped up from there.

    One big difference is that I ran mine back to back with in and hour as I took both sets of chips for runs and did two pulls each. I don't think it would change much but it is a little hard to compare dynos from different days even with correction.

    Have you called Powerchip yet about the situation?
     
  11. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Do you have a postable graph of the back to back dynos? I think the comparison with these would be very interesting, even though it is difficult to quatitatively compare car to car dynos.
     
  12. Beau365

    Beau365 Formula 3

    Feb 27, 2005
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    Hard to call. Is the new curve & response better than your standard ECU's, or is there a drop in one zone, whilst gaining in another ?
     
  13. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
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    Yep. They said try the more aggressively timed chips, about 2-3% more timing advance than the previous set.

    I won't be able to do another run for a few weeks but I'm done with the one-change-at-a-time approach. Next time we'll have the K&N filter, aggressive chips, and 94 octane fuel. With luck we'll see about 6-8% improvement.
     
  14. jjstecher

    jjstecher Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2002
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    I wish I still had the dyno charts and I would post them. Pain in the butt was when I got them done it wasnt in digital format it was just an old print out. I remember once upon a time I plotted some of the points on a graph and posted it on here but that was eons ago.

    I have a dyno day scheduled for April when I actually get my car put back together. I plan on baselining with the stock chips, adding the power chips in, and then having a starting point for my COPs conversion and my BMC air filter upgrade, and my intake spacer I am waiting to push the button on in eMachineshop, etc, etc, etc....

    Sad thing is what I can actually get to depends on how much real work I have to do....I think I need to win that lotto on Saturday. :)
     
  15. jjstecher

    jjstecher Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2002
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    Buzz did you go with the 91 octane chips? I have the 94 as a reference in my car.
     
  16. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
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    No, the 93 octane chips. I want to run with 94 octane as a little extra insurance against preignition.
     
  17. jjstecher

    jjstecher Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2002
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    What are the more agressively timed chips? Is that something beyond the 93 Octane chip they gave you?
     
  18. F430CS

    F430CS Rookie

    Feb 14, 2006
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    This looks like a pretty good gain above stock settings? how does the car feel when driven normal/agressive?

    also (silly question) - is it difficult to remove the ECU?

    I have a friend with a 348 that said it was too hard to remove???
     
  19. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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  20. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
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    They claim the regular chips are 2-3% timing advanced over stock, and the aggressive chips are 2-3% more advanced over the regular chips. A/F tweaks are the same for both.
     
  21. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    #46 No Doubt, Feb 25, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

    It's easy enough to verify what they've done.

    Here's what the stock 348/Mondial T fuel and timing looks like (see below). If they've advanced the timing, then it will show up when graphed.
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  22. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    how does one interpret the lambda trim on those maps?
     
  23. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    The taller the point on the graph, the more fuel is being injected.
     
  24. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Any numerical correlation/conversion to the provided air/fuel ratio? It would be interesting to see what A/Fs are provided under what conditions and the range, especially if you had the 3d map with higher resolution.
    Great info!
     
  25. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
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    Well your friend is wrong. It is VERY easy to take out the ecu. It can be done in less than 5 minutes.
     

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