who's in, who's waiting? new belt cam design is done and manufacturing begins now!

PM sent.

 

as requested the talley of those in the first run are now 4

thanks

 

product liability,
this has been and probably will be the one issue that can kill most any idea before hits the drawing board. i'm not sure how to approach this, i know that insurance would cause me to have to charge a premium and there goes the cost option.

to me an engineer, the worst case is yes the belt goes and boom you have motor damage. however that is the current state of affairs. the least dramatic option is the retaining bolts for the timing are not properly torqued down and you loose your timing, a total of 5* crank. not enough to cause piston/valve contact.

please remember i'm not approaching this willy nilly, i have done the reasearch and talked to the belt compaines. the pulley stock is being made by a company that manufactures gears and pullies only for the last 60yrs. they supply to a number of auto manufactures for thier timing pullies also. so any issue with the belt to pulley contact should be nill. as to owner installation, i have no control over that.

but if insurance is needed to have those concerned comfortable then i'll look into it, however at that point this would be a buisness deal and i would have to abide by the rules here for that and this would move off-site or to a dealer directly.

 

Well, I am looking at this as a void-your-warranty, play-at-your-own-risk thing myself. I'm making the choice to buy the part and install the part. If it's messed up, well, I'm screwed. BUT, it's my own decision to put myself there.

Short answer: I ain't worried about your insurance coverage.

 

That's exactly how I would handle it too.

 

Fine, I just wanted to be sure, that you don't underrate the creativeness of lawyers ;-)

Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

Okay guys, come to the table and think about this in detail. The 308 belt system needs an upgrade. Its probably the single weakest system on these cars. For one thing we don't even have a good way to know the age of the belts before it even goes on the car. The tooth design is old, this newer setup should make the drive system virtually bulletproof between service intervals. Many could safely extend the service some without as great of fear of blowing a motor.

While I have somehow become more along the line of wanting my car to appear stock, this drive system is totally hidden behind the stock belt cover, so its really not an issue.

Liability. Well, I suppose some want some kind of guarantee. How much guarantee do you have you will be breathing tomorrow? Scott is doing everyone who wants an upgraded belt drive a huge favor, and not even making a buck doing it. Sure, he might be able to sell it off to an aftermarket company, but in reality, most liability would only cover the actual part itself, and not any damage it would cost. In the true and original spirit of American freedom, I say screw the liability, I will take the risk and absolve Scott of any liability. I bought my car sitting against a fence where it had sat outside through a minnesota winter. Used and abused she was. I got no guarantee the car would even run, much less how long the original pulleys would keep turning.

Re: just changed belts, dont want this setup right now. I would argue to get one anyway, its only gonna get more expensive later on. Or be unavailable. No one is going to go to the trouble again if no one buys into it.

On the later cars, if the only difference in the 3.2 or QV is the hole in the pulley is "larger", then one could simply convert a 2 valve set by machining the hole. That way Scott could make a few extra sets and not be holding the whole bag.

 

At least have legal write you a waiver of liability, for racing use only, no warranty expressed or implied. User assumes all risk. User is responsible for correct installation. User is knowledgeable in the proper use of the product. User will not modify product. User will maintain the product per manufacuters specifications...etc..etc..Have it signed before sale as a condition of sale. Also enclose a "shrink wrap waiver" that is, if the packageing is opened then ALL risk becomes the buyer.

.02

I used to design and manufacure life support equipment (SCUBA) in my former life. I can tell you all about product liability ;^P

JD

 

Scott,

I have decided that Unobtainium Supply ought to purchase one of these sets to evaluate it for possible resale. (I just got the check for that 303 GTB column switch I repaired last month. It aboutcovers the deposit, so I won't have to pull the cushions off of the couch & see how much change I can fish out.) Tnx for the PM, am taking you up on your offer, think that makes this the tally 5 sets.

Please send your PayPal address to: [email protected]

SUBJ: Cam gear system deposit info

You can etch my logo on the parts can't you? Say 180 degrees opposite the vernier


FOR YOUR PROTECTION:
I understand that I'll be buying an untested prototype set of cam gears w/o warranty. I hereby absolve the supplier of any damage to any vehicle I install this prototype cam gear set in.

Committingly,
Verell

 

thanks, verell you're number 4 not counting me so we now have a total of 5 sets.

 

had a few questions:..have these been actually tested? I remember Ed Gault ran his "honda" set-up in his own 2v 308 for a while...

what ever happened to the cam gear clamp for QV's I'd like to change my belts alone...might wait and do the timing 'till these new pulleys are avail. but don't want to delay the belts..

I also read in the forza that the turbo 308 guy blew a flew pistons 'cause his engine was out of timing a few degrees...what if these lock screws slip from vibration ( I know the whole point of this design is that better not happen)..

I have abandoned trying to keep my 308 all OEM..as I see the rapid disintergration of the factory parts and the cost to maintain them with now outdated and inferior parts..I drive the car and anything that would make it a better more roadworthy driver is my new philosophy...goodbye fabric coated hoses ( if it will cause a fire)... ggodby aold belt system if it will cause a head crash..

there may be many more "lurkers" or fence sitters like me that you would imagine on this item..

 

yes i'm making these for the 2v Qv and 3.2. as for what happens if the bolts slip and you loose your timing, well it only allows for 10* cam timing which is 5* crank timing so don't think you are going to have an interference problem.

I do not know how ed gault made is system, i do know how i'm doing this one. the pullies will be made by a company that makes timing systems for dodge, honda, general motors and a few others. they supply directly to the manufacture. so the pulley stock i will be getting in no way will 'eat' or destroy the belts. for this we pay more but i'd rather do it right then risk causing damage.

the only thing i needed to do for this new system was redesign the pulley for the adjustability and convert over to the new belt, the applications engineers and myself worked out the needed teeth/belt leangth.

for FI if you don't have the correct timing you will indeed cause damage becouse you are increasing cylinder pressure and extra fuel for the increase in air, NA is alot more forgiving under those circumstances. i'll let the FI guys chime in here with the specifics.

as to the tools, i'll be making those at the same time if not sooner, however i'll need to get intrest and cost sorted first.

 

Sorry but just to correct you there if you have 10* of cam timing that is 20* of crank not 5*, the crank turns twice as far as the cams!

 

you're right, sorry about that. if you torque the bolts to 15ft/lbs then they should not let loose. i've also includded a double serrated belville washer to make double damn sure they don't loosen.

now remember i've provided the same number of pins holes plus an additional two, so if you want to set your timing up advance/retard beyond 0* then you'll have to take in account the adjustable timing available ad/ret of 10* on the pulley when you play there. in other words if you set it at 0* then all you have availble to adjust is 10* eithier way but if you set your timing at 12* advance then you could adjust all the way out to 32* advance (but only 2* retard) which may be to far. just want to make sure everyone understands how adjustable they are.

i told myself not to post this weekend becouse we've been doing the wine/beer tours up here and i have 2 scotch dinners to hit, so my sharpness will have to be excused. now i'm back to my ale... see you all on tuesday.

 

That was an ignition timing issue, not cam timing. Detonation and boost don't mix well. From what I understand, the shop that installed the ecu and tuned it jest didn't know what they were doing. Whole different issue.

 

This is exactly why (I believe) Ed stopped selling/making his conversion. What you are doing here was done years ago by Ed ... and I have to say you are very brave.

I'd get insurance ... as as soon as one fails "Mr Nice guys" here will turn into not so nice guys. Most of the people on this site are professional people and don't like loosing money ... and are not going to stick to the 'yeah I bought it at my risk completely deal', not when faced with a $50,000 engine rebuild. The fact too is that once an engine has smeared itself all over the tarmac it can be hard to work out what caused the fault ... any insurance company that the car owner uses will IMMEDIATELY walk away from covering the car as soon as this modification is found. After all would you insure somebody elses modification? ...

There is a reason why Ferrari revised their replacement intervals shorter!

Personally (and I mean no offense) it is far cheaper and safer in the long run to just replace them at the shorter Ferrari recommended intervals. Car insurance company will be happy ... etc.
Pete

 

He stopped because it wasn't selling. He had to peddle the last 3 or so of the 10 sets he built on eBAY to recover his costs. Now why it wasn't selling is open to speculation...

Huh,
You can get insurance that covers engine failure?
Well, I guess extended warranty or a service policy could be considered insurance, but try to get it on a 20 year old 3x8 at a price you could afford. Esp if you track the car.

There are a lot of companies making very similar cam gears for the ricer market. I haven't seen any mention of insurance covering engine failure there either.

How is this mod different from a other performance mods eg: turbo or supercharger conversion, performance headers, high compression pistons, etc? Last I read the fine print in my car insurance, it didn't say anything about engine mods. Just lots about excluding any form of performance, speed, or other competition events

 

for clarification on the timing issue and the FI cars as well...I am in for the QV tool and on the fence on the pulleys but it would be for a QV anyway. Don't be ridiculous and let a issue like product liability stop innovation...that is just tort reform spin...design and engineer the best you can and take "industry practice" care and utilize all industry tests and advance technology...which all sounds like exactly what you are doing....

 

Yes open to speculation .. why will this kit sell any better? Again IMO this whole Ferraris having timing belt issues is a load of cr@p. If maintained properly they are fine ... just costs a few more dollars than some other cars. I bet they did not sell because nobody wanted to try an untested, unwarranted modification on their Ferrari. Different mindset to young kids try to make their Honda/Toyota go faster with Daddies money

Now when Brembo, etc. bring out a modication they have their companies reputation, etc. behind them ... completely different to this situation.

A lot of your points are right and valid ... I'm just pointing out that he is taking a risk. I've even had arguments with my race cars engine builder (years ago) after it sh@t itself and we ended up splitting the cost ... cause I questioned one of his modifications and the design. In the end we are talking large $'s here and I would want some sort of cover ...

Pete

 

Pete, why are you trolling on this thread? You're not in the target market and will never own anything this pully fits.

 

Hmmm, I'd just make my own conversion if it really was necessary

Point take, bye.
Pete

 

I dont see the market for this product. Its a nice idea and im sure its time consuming and expensive but because 308's are not flying apart left right and center, this isnt really an answer to a problem. There is no problem so why build it? It would be nice if someone with the means would step up to the plate and start making reproduction lamp lenses such as 308 tail lights, the front signal lamps in solid orange, BB front amber lamps and so forth, things people will line up to buy.

 

as long as we are hijacking the thread and making a list..I am interested in upgrades..the factory no longer is making 308 upgrades..that's for sure but we are still driving them..

 

There are a few options. Norwood has a package were they fit a mallory distributor, electromotive makes a direct fire set-up (Nick sells the whole set-up of just the pickup), several EFI setups will run direct fire whether you want the efi part of not.

You can "upgrade" pretty much every part on the car if you choose. The one thing you can be sure of in almost every case is that it will cost more than an OEM replacement, at least in the short term.

This belt set-up is a good example. It's a modern belt and better then the 30 year old OEM set-up, no doubt about it...but the conversion parts cost 10 times what a simple OEM replacement belt costs. If you have the work done and can double the time between service, you'll make the money back in 2 or 3 belt changes I guess (although personally I change belts at 5 years even on new cars and the valve adjust ment is still due every 30k regardless -whether you change the belt or not).

My guess is that the people doing the belt conversion are doing it primarily for piece of mind more than anything else...or it may be to have a way-cool set of adjustable pulleys. It's not because they need to do it, it's because they want to, the same reason anyone makes any modifications to any car. It's not on my must do list simply because I don't personally like slotted anything and that includes cam pulleys. That doesn't make them bad or mean I'm going to bash them in any way, it's just means that it's a mod I'm probably not going to make.

So, now that we've been off on a couple tangents, can we get back to belt and pulley upgrades?

 

alright an update:
i've orderd enough stock for 10 sets, right now i have 5 standing orders with deposits. i'll have the stock in 2wks time and from there it'll be 4-6wks to completion. pics to follow when they are here.

i'm also working very fast on the 348 design as well.

thanks.