Boxer engine out... | Page 5 | FerrariChat

Boxer engine out...

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by robertinOK, Jan 11, 2006.

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  1. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

    Dec 3, 2003
    1,779
    Westchester, NY
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    Mark
    Ok...

    Now that begs the question: How do these flat engines go together in the first place?
     
  2. robertinOK

    robertinOK Karting

    Dec 5, 2003
    209
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
    Full Name:
    RobertWakeling.com
    Took all the parts in to airborn coatings yesterday. They are going t oceramic coat/polish the exhaust manifolds, recoat the cam covers, inlet pipes, inlet manifolds, plenums, and belt covers. All the aother parts, including the block and heads I will refinesh here.
    Currently stripping the heads after the shocking leak down test, new valves going in, but need to check springs etc for wear and sag after 21 years...especially as the new SS valves will be a little heavier....want it to still sing up to the red line.
    I did find quiet a few nuts on the inlet manifolds/plenums that were just loose...quiet believable that it may have been leaking air. Also injectors were very difficult to remove, both seals were very hard and had to be hammered out, although the injectors rotated freely in the mount.
    The slight 'ticking' noise from the engine at about 3,000 rpm, throttle dependent, I think was down to two exhaust ports on the 7-12 bank leaking slightly, and not valve clearance as I wa sexpecting.
    Got a lot more cleaning, and rewiring, to do in the engine bay, then I can get to the fun part...putting it all back together: Can't wait to use it again!
    Robert
     
  3. Kingpin328

    Kingpin328 Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2003
    433
    #103 Kingpin328, Feb 2, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    With lots and lots of nuts, studs en bolts ....... :)

    The block itsself consists of 2 halves bolted together, enclosing the crankshaft. Pic below is from that great thread on "the dark side". Those pics are a work of art in itsself. And yes, these flat 12's are awesome indeed!
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  4. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
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    What is the status of the engine out?
     
  5. robertinOK

    robertinOK Karting

    Dec 5, 2003
    209
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
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    RobertWakeling.com
    #105 robertinOK, Feb 13, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Guys, sorry for the 'quiet' period.
    I've been cleaning, and cleaning some more. The engine bay is now done, and I've started on redoing some wiring, in particular the dinoplex was changed to an MSD6T, and the wiring was done by an incompetant, so I've completely redone it with soldered connections and adhesive lined heat shrink, with new 6 pin connector. I've also started replacing all pipes and hoses that look in the slightest bit 'old'.
    The pistons/block have cleaned up well, I have ordered new nuts for most places, and have engine paint comming this week.
    I removed the rear diff. casting to sort out all the black sealer that had been added...again, some incompetant had added it. The surfaces will be cleaned and levelled then reassembled properly. There are two nuts behind the clutch that hold the block to the trans...these were loose! You would not believe the number of loose nuts I've found...more incompetance!
    Clutch is back with new kevlar surfaces and ground plates. Looks good.
    I removed the oil tank to clean and found the paint flaking off, so removed it all and intend putting it back in it's natural polished state.
    Also, and I know this will cause upset amongst the faithfull, I am having the inlet manifolds, belt coveres, etc all painted textured silver, and the cam covers and plenums painted textured black....both will have the Ferrari logos left natural. I just thought it would look good like that....time will tell!
    I've orderd new SS valves which I'm having faces and seats cut to match...should make a noticable difference to performance looking at the leak down test!
    Robert
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  6. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
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    Robert:

    You seem to be able to find parts rather easily, is this true?
     
  7. robertinOK

    robertinOK Karting

    Dec 5, 2003
    209
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
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    Hi Ron,

    Not always. However, I don't subscribe to the idea of buying 'Ferrari' parts when they were never made by Ferrari in the first place, and feel, when picked properly, aftermarket parts will perform better. Materials, in particular, have come a long way in the last 20 years.

    The valves for the boxer: I was quoted about $50-60 each..but they didn't have any, so bought generic SS at $13 each...where do you think the 'Ferrari' valves come from? Someone has only ground the generics to size: I'd rather do it myself so they match the seats perfectly.

    I do have a list of parts I need, but the internet is an excellent source. The exhaust nuts were getting old, but I found some VW machined brass nuts the same size, but to fit an 11mm socket. Brass is much nicer to use than steel (even copper plated!) and these, being longer and 11mm will be much easier to get to with the 1/4" drive. (The exhaust removal was the most difficult job..pity Enzo didn't bolt on the rearmost cross brace under the engine, then the engine would have come out with exhaust attached....I've even been tempted to modify it)

    Obviously, some parts are Ferrari and must be purchased as such.

    Does this answer your question?

    Robert
     
  8. robertinOK

    robertinOK Karting

    Dec 5, 2003
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    Stillwater, Oklahoma
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    Got the parts back from AirBorn coatings in OKC. Very pleased with the service.

    The valves were a mess: Specified clearance between stem and guid is 1-2 thou, mine were all around 65 thou! They rattled! I'm contacting the previous owner trying to work out what has happened. Everything else is perfest, including all the cam bearings, buckets, pistons, rings bores (even to the extent of zero on the leak down tests!). The valves are not standard (SS have been used) and I think they were just not the right stem size. I cannot believe that wear of that order is possible with everything else perfect. Again, I'm suspecting incompetance yet again.

    The good news is that it's easy to repair: with new guides and valves being fitted now, I look forward to driving it with it's renewed power and sound. I'm guessing it could easily have been 30% down on power. Very sad!

    A few pics attached of the paint. (actually, won't let me attach pics)

    Robert
     
  9. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
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    Yes, thank you for your answer. Check out my thread in this section on the Boxer engine book I just bought. Probably too late to help you, but the photos are terrific when trying to understand engine assembly.
     
  10. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Extremely clean pics!
     
  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
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    Sounds like the top end was pretty rough, wonder how many other boxers are on borrowed time. Glad you decided to take it apart rather than roll the dice. Your car just went up in value more than the cost of the repairs.

    P.
     
  12. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,426


    Valve stem/guide clearances are .0025-.0055 with a wear limit of +.0010 per factory WSM, your valves were not that far out and at the wear limit specs
     
  13. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    With those specs, he is still way out there, I wouldnt want .0065" guide clearance or .0035" either, the tighter the better. With todays offerings you can run tighter than spec for great oil control with spiral cut grooves in the new guides. Much better than ferrari ever used. Just imagine, a ferrari from the eighties that doesnt leak or consume oil. My 308 doesnt use a measureable amount between 5000kms oil changes.
     
  14. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,426

    From what I understand Ferrari had them loose for what reason I don't know but clearly a reason the Flat 12s are known for that puff of oil smoke sometimes on startup.
     
  15. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    Ferrari ran the 308's loose as well and that contributed to oil consumption. Loose guides in a flat 12 or any horizontal engine will consume more oil because the exhaust valve is at the bottom where the oil drains and returns to the sump, not to mention the intake valve angle inviting oil to follow it right into the chamber. That is the worst combination you can have and air cooled 930's for example are famous for this very problem. Running tighter guides with todays technology combined with a positive seal will prevent the typical puff of smoke from a flat 12. As far as im concerned, the puff is due to the technology of the time and there is no reason to be stuck back there.
     
  16. robertinOK

    robertinOK Karting

    Dec 5, 2003
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    #116 robertinOK, Feb 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Guys, the stem to guide clearance was 65 thou.....thats 0.065" not 0.0065". My workshop book quotes clearances from 0.0009" to 0.002" with a 0.004" max. these are 15 times as big! The valves litterally wobbled from side to side!

    I am really glad I did the leak down tests which highlighted the problem. When I removed the valves, it was 50/50 chance whether the valve seated properly or not.

    The weird part is that the cam bearings and followers are 'perfect', beautifully bedded in with no wear. Same goes for the pistons/rings and bores, I even got 0% leak down when the valves shut properly. I have no idea why the valves are like they are, but as I said they are not the production sodium valves, but aftermarket SS jobs, I can only think they were too small when they were put in. I have ordered a set of Manley valves, hard chrome plated, necked and lightened which I think will work well. We're removing the old guides tomorrow, and new ones will be fitted next week.

    I have attached the pics I couldn't get loaded yesterday. Note I did the plenums black rather than silver, and with the 'Ferrari' brushed, think they look excellent.
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  17. robertinOK

    robertinOK Karting

    Dec 5, 2003
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    Oh, the insides of the cam covers had a 'glyptal' coating that was begining to flake off...( warning! I should hate to think what that might do if it got stuck in an oil passage! worth checking if you have the covers off) Anyway, I had it all removed and teflon coating applied in its place.

    Robert
     
  18. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Looks fantastic! The black really turned out great. I imagine your car will work well with the upgraded valves, something I will do to mine one of these days.

    How much to coat the headers? They should last a lifetime.
     
  19. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,427
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    I am one of many I'm sure...that has been following this thread. It has been very enlightening, and most of all I've really enjoyed it immensely. And as a TR owner I do have some interest in how things work out.....these flat 12s have their good points and bad ones...but overall they are excellent motors that are built very strong. The work you have done, and the depths you've gone to on this motor are inspiring to say the least. I've done several major services (engine out) on TRs in my little garage and can relate first hand to many of the things your are experiencing. I am most impressed with the quality of the work....those cam covers look terrific. And the coated headers....Wow! Once you start making an engine perfect...it can outclass the rest of the engine bay. But I see your tackling that too. I'm sure I speak for many when I say Thank You for taking the time and trouble to post everything. Keep up the great work....I can't wait to see what's next!!
     
  20. robertinOK

    robertinOK Karting

    Dec 5, 2003
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    Thanks for the kind words Jeff.
    I have no intention of making the car concours; The idea is for it to be driven as Enzo intended for (hopefully) the next 6-8 years without problems. Consequently, a lot of the parts I have meticulously cleaned and will go back if they are in perfect order (alternators, water pump, oil pumps etc). However, where something will benefit from renewal, it will be replaced.
    All the bolts/nuts and especialy lock washers are being replaced...I've bought the correct spec bolts (off the net)...about $75 for everything, including new stainles cap nuts. This does not include splitting the crankcase because this is perfect and beautifully bedded in. All hoses will be replaced, and the a/c is being rebuilt whilst it's disconnected (I still need an a/c drier).
    I don't see any point in having a car like the Boxer if you have to feel worried every time you start it up: the Boxer engine is very lightly rated (68 bhp/litre is nothing for Ford, let alone Ferrari), and the cars are very well put together, just need a good, regular thrash! Leaving them idle does so much more harm!
    I just wish I could understand why the valves are like they are, but need to put it behind me, get them perfect, and move on, lol.
    Robert
     
  21. prototypefan

    prototypefan Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2005
    396
    ab, canada
    I would also like to echo Jeff's post. I've got two injected Boxers one on MSO and my driver which will require a clutch and engine out service in short order. Your thread has thinking about the "ounce of prevention is a pound of cure" saying. You have put your own twist on it and put "icing on the cake" with your level of detail.

    You are proving to be very practical and resourceful in your approach without compromising any of the integrity of vehicle, all the while most likely saving some funds over F-parts. If anything you have added to it with things like the teflon coating and the exhaust treatment.

    Thank you for taking the time, it is greatly appreciated, especially the pictures.
     
  22. robertinOK

    robertinOK Karting

    Dec 5, 2003
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    Stillwater, Oklahoma
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    Hi Guys,

    The fuel injectors on my boxer are marked 0473 502 023 (014), which appears to be a valid part No. However, the last 2 digits prior to the (014) have been ground off on every injector: does anyone know why? Have these been recalibrated? they are all the same. I am looking ot buy new ones, and have been told thay have been superseeded with part No. 0473 502 047, can anyone confirm this?

    I can;t help feeling the different No's might indicate different operating pressures or flows...last thing I need is to be trying to tune the engine with the wrong injectors.

    Robert
     
  23. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,427
    Alabama (was Mich.)
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    Jeff
    I just bought new fuel inectors for my TR off ebay. A fellow in UK selling them for about $26 each. The new injectors are made of brass instead of steel and therefore will not have the corrosion problems the old ones can suffer from. The latest part number is: 0 437 502 047


    I am still trying to source the o-rings though....anybody have an alternative source...I don't like paying $5 each per little rubber o-ring.
     
  24. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
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    What the latest?
     

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